Dossier Clinton

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Transcriptie van Clintons verhoor voor de Grand Jury (17 aug. 1998). Ook als zip-bestand te downloaden.

Starr Report

Clintons reactie op het Starr Report

Clintons tweede reactie op het Starr Report

Monica Lewinsky

Linda Tripp

Paula Jones

President Clinton testifies before the Kenneth Starr grand jury to discuss his relationship with Monica Lewinsky

Your answer: "I know him well."

QUESTION: Going down to 6(d) (ph) -- "Has it ever been reported to you that he met with Monica Lewinsky and talked about this case?" This is your answer, or a portion of it. I knew that he met with her. I think we suggested that he meet with her. Anyway, he met with her. I thought that he talked to her about something else." Why didn't you tell the court when you were under oath, and sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, that she had been talking with Vernon Jordan about the case, about the affidavit from the lawyer, the subpoena?

CLINTON: Well, that's not the question I was asked. I was not asked any question about -- I was asked "Has it ever been reported to you that he met with Monica Lewinsky and talked about this case?" I believe -- I may be wrong about this -- my impression was that at the time -- I was focused on the meetings. I believe the meetings we had were meetings about her moving to New York and getting a job. I knew at some point that she had told him that she needed some help because she had gotten a subpoena. I'm not sure I know whether she did that in a meeting or a phone call. And I was not focused on that. I know Vernon helped her to get a lawyer, Mr. Carter. And I believe that he did it after she had called him, but I'm not sure. But I knew that the main source of their meetings was about her moving to New York and her getting a job.

QUESTION: Are you saying, sir, that you forgot when you were asked this question that Vernon Jordan had come on december 19th, just 3 1/2 weeks before, and said that he'd met that day, the day that Monica got the subpoena?

CLINTON: It's quite -- this is sort of a jumbled answer. It's quite possible that I had gotten mixed up between whether she had met with him or talked to him on the telephone in those 3 1/2 weeks. Again, I say, sir -- just from the tone of your voice and the way you're asking questions here -- it's obvious that this is the most important thing in the world and that everybody was focused on all the details at the time. But that's not the way it was. I was doing my best to remember. Now, keep in mind, I don't know if this is true, but the news reports are that Linda Tripp talked to you, then went and talked to the Jones lawyers, and you know, that she prepared them for this. Now, maybe -- you seem to be criticizing me because they didn't ask better questions, and -- as if you didn't prepare them well enough to sort of set me up or something. I don't know what's going on here. All I can tell you is I didn't remember all the details of all this. I didn't remember what -- when Vernon talked to me about Monica Lewinsky, where she talked to him on the telephone or had a meeting, I didn't remember all those details. I was focused on the fact that Monica went to meet with Vernon after Betty helped him set it up and had subsequent meetings to talk about her move to New York. Now, keep in mind at this time, at this time, until this date here -- when it's obvious that something funny is going here and there's some sort of a "gotcha" game at work in this deposition, until this date, I didn't know that Ms. Lewinsky's deposition wasn't going to be sufficient for her to avoid testifying. I didn't -- you know, so all these details...

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE). You mean her affidavit?

CLINTON: Excuse me. I'm sorry. Her affidavit -- thank you. So I don't necessarily remember all the details of all these questions you're asking me because there was a lot of other things going on. And at the time they were going on, until all this came out, this was not the most important thing in my life. This was just another thing in my life.

QUESTION: But Vernon Jordan met with you, sir, and he reported that he had met with Monica Lewinsky. And the discussion was about the lawsuit, and you didn't inform under oath the court of that in your deposition.

CLINTON: I gave the best answer I could based on the best memory I had at the time they asked me the question. That's the only answer I can give you, sir.

QUESTION: And...

CLINTON: And I think I may have been confused in my memory because I've also talked to him on the phone about what he said about whether he talked to her or met with her. That's all I can tell you. But let me say again, I don't have the same view about this deposition -- I mean, this affidavit that I think you do.

CLINTON: I felt very strongly that Ms. Lewinsky and everybody else that didn't know anything about Paula Jones and anything about sexual harassment, that she and others were themselves being harassed for political purposes in the hope of getting damaging information that the Jones' lawyers could unlawfully leak. Now, I believed then, I believe today that she could execute an affidavit which, under reasonable circumstances -- with fair-minded, nonpolitically oriented people -- would result in her being relieved of the burden to be put through the kind of testimony that thanks to Linda Tripp's work with you and with the Jones' lawyers she would have been put through. I don't think that's dishonest. I don't think that's illegal. I think what they were trying to do to her and all these other people who knew nothing about sexual harassment was outrageous -- just so they could hurt me politically. So I just don't have the same attitude about this you do.

QUESTION: Well, you're not telling our grand jurors that you think the case was a political case for a setup, Mr. President, that that would give you the right to commit perjury...

CLINTON: No, sir. No, sir. In the face of their -- the Jones' lawyers -- the people that were questioning me, in the face of their illegal leaks, their constant unrelenting illegal leaks, in a lawsuit that I knew -- and that by the time that this deposition and this discovery started, they knew -- was a bogus suit on the law and a bogus suit on the facts.

QUESTION: The question...

CLINTON: In the fact of that, I knew that in the face of their illegal activity, I still had to behave lawfully. But I wanted to be legal without being particularly helpful. I thought that was what I was trying to do. And this is the -- you're the first person to ever suggest to me that I should have been doing their lawyers work for them when they were perfectly free to ask follow-up questions. On one or two occasions, Mr. Bennett invited them to ask follow- up questions. It now appears to me they didn't because they were afraid I would give them a truthful answer, and that there had been some communication between you and Ms. Tripp and them. And they were trying to set me up and trick me. And now you seem to be complaining that they didn't do a good enough job. I did my best, sir, at this time. I did not know what I now know about this.

A:lot of other things were going on in my life. Did I want this to come out? No. Was I embarrassed about it? Yes. Did I ask her to lie about it? No. Did I believe there could be a truthful affidavit? Absolutely. Now that's all I know to say about this. I will continue to answer your questions as best I can.

QUESTION: You're not going back on your earlier statement that you understood you were sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth to the folks at that deposition, are you, Mr. President?

CLINTON: No, sir, but I think we might as well put this out on the table. You tried to get me to give a broader interpretation to my oath than just my obligation to tell the truth. In other words, you tried to say even though these people were treating you in an illegal manner and illegally leaking these depositions, you should be a good lawyer for them. And if they don't have enough sense to ask a question, and even if Mr. Bennett invited them to ask follow-up questions, if they didn't do it, you should have done all their work for them. So I will admit this, sir. My goal in this deposition was to be truthful, but not particularly helpful. I did not wish to do the work of the Jones' lawyers. I deplored what they were doing. I deplored the innocent people they were tormenting and traumatizing. I deplored their illegal leaking. I deplored the fact that they knew -- once they knew our evidence, that this was a bogus lawsuit, and that because of the funding they had from my political enemies, they were putting ahead. I deplored it. But I was determined to walk through the mine field of this deposition without violating the law. And I believe I did.

QUESTION: You're not saying, are you, Mr. President, in terms of doing the work for the Jones' folks, the Jones' lawyers, that you could say as part of your not helping them, I don't know to a particular question when you really knew, and that it was up to them, even if you really knew the answer, it was up to them to do the follow-up -- that you kind of had a one free, I don't know?

CLINTON: No, sir.

QUESTION: If I could finish up. I've been very patient, Mr. President, in letting you finish.

QUESTION: You didn't think you had a free shot to say, "I don't know" or "I don't recall," but when you really did know and you did recall, and it was just up to them, even if you weren't telling the truth, to do a follow-up and to catch you?

CLINTON: No, sir, I'm not saying that. And if I could give you one example. That's why I felt that I had to come back to that question when I said I don't know that and talk about Bruce Lindsey, because I was trying -- I was honestly trying -- to remember how I'd first heard this. I wasn't hung up about talking about this. All I'm saying is the it -- let me say something sympathetic to you. I've been pretty tough, so let me say something sympathetic. All of you are intelligent people. You've worked hard on this. You've worked for a long time. You've gotten all the facts. You've seen a lot of evidence that I haven't seen. And it's an embarrassing and personally painful thing, the truth about my relationship with Ms. Lewinsky. So the natural assumption is that while all this was going on, I must have been focused on nothing but this, therefore, I must remember everything about it in the sequence and form in which it occurred. All I can tell you is I was concerned about it. I was glad she saw a lawyer. I was glad she was doing an affidavit. But there were a lot of other things going on, and I don't necessarily remember it all. And I don't know if I can convince you of that. But I tried to be honest with you about my mindset about this deposition, and I'm just trying to explain that I don't have the memory that you assume that I should about some of these things.

QUESTION: I want to talk to you for a bit, Mr. President, about the incident that happened at the northwest gate of the White House on december 5th. Sorry, december 6th, 1997. If you'll give me just a moment. That was a -- let me ask you first, in early 19 -- in early december 1997, the Paula Jones case was pending, correct?

CLINTON: Yes, sir.

QUESTION: You were represented by Mr. Bennett, of course.

CLINTON: Yes, that's correct.

QUESTION: How...

CLINTON: Yes, I do. He was...

QUESTION: How -- I'm sorry. Go ahead.

CLINTON: No, no. Yes, he was representing me.

QUESTION: How often did you talk to him or meet with him, if you can just recall, at that time of the litigation?

CLINTON: Well, we met, I would say -- I wish Mr. Ruff were answering this question instead of me. His memory would be better. We met probably, oh -- for a long time, we didn't meet all that often, maybe once a month. And then the closer we got to the deposition, we would meet more frequently. So maybe by this time we were meeting more. We also -- there was a period when we had been approached about...

QUESTION: The question only goes to the number of meetings and not the content of (OFF-MIKE).

CLINTON: I understand. We're not talking about the content. There was a period in which we, I think back in the summer before this, when we had met more frequently. But I would say normally once a month. Sometimes something would be happening; we'd meet more. And then, as we moved toward the deposition, we would begin to meet more.

QUESTION: The witness list came out on december 5th of 1997 with Monica Lewinsky's name on it. Mr. President, when did you find out that Monica's name was on that witness list?

CLINTON: I believe that I found out late in the afternoon on the 6th. That's what I believe. I've tried to remember with great precision, and because I thought you would ask me about this day, I tried to remember the logical question, which is whether I knew it on the 6th, and if so, at what time. I don't -- I had a meeting in the late afternoon on the 5th -- on the 6th. Excuse me, on the 6th. And I believe that's when I learned about it.

QUESTION: Now, on the morning of the 6th, Monica Lewinsky came to the northwest gate and found out that you were being visited by Eleanor Mondale at the time and had an extremely angry reaction. You know that, sir, don't you?

CLINTON: I have -- I have -- I know that Monica Lewinsky came to the gate on the 6th, and apparently directly called in and wanted to see me and couldn't, and was angry about it. WASHINGTON (AP) _ Text of President Clinton's Aug. 17 grand jury testimony before Office of the Independent Counsel prosecutors investigating the president's relationship with former White House intern Monica Lewinsky. The following transcripts were provided by the Federal Document Clearing House

(UNKNOWN): Mr. President, would you raise your right hand, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

CLINTON: I do.

QUESTION: Good afternoon, Mr. President.

CLINTON: Good afternoon.

QUESTION: Could you please state your full name for the record, sir?

CLINTON: William Jefferson Clinton.

QUESTION: My name is Sol Wisenberg. I'm a deputy independent counsel with the Office of Independent Counsel. And with me today are some other attorneys from the Office of Independent Counsel. At the courthouse are the ladies and gentlemen of the grand jury prepared to receive your testimony as you give it. Do you understand, sir?

CLINTON: Yes, I do.

QUESTION: This proceeding is subject to Rule 6(e) of the federal rules of criminal procedure as modified by Judge Johnson's order. You are appearing voluntarily today as part of an agreement worked out between your attorney, the Office of the Independent Counsel, and with the approval of Judge Johnson. Is that correct, sir?

CLINTON: That is correct.

(UNKNOWN): Mr. Wisenberg, excuse me. You referred to Judge Johnson's order. I'm not familiar with that order. Have we been served that or not?

QUESTION: No. My understand is that that is an order that the judge is going to sign today. She didn't have the name of Awaka (ph). A person basically, my understanding is that it will cover all of the attorneys here today and the technical people in the room. So that they would be authorized personally to be permitted to hear grand jury testimony that they otherwise wouldn't be authorized to hear.

(UNKNOWN): Thank you.

QUESTION: The grand jury, Mr. President, has been empaneled by a United States District Court for the District of Columbia. Do you understand that, sir?

CLINTON: I do.

QUESTION: And among other things, it's currently investigating under the authority of the Court of Appeals upon application by the attorney general whether Monica Lewinsky or others obstructed justice, intimidated witnesses or committed other crimes related to the case of Jones versus Clinton. Do you understand that, sir?

CLINTON: I do.

QUESTION: And today, you will be receiving questions not only from attorneys on the OIC staff, but from some of the grand jurors, too. Do you understand that?

CLINTON: Yes, sir. I do.

QUESTION: I'm going to talk briefly about your rights and responsibilities as a grand jury witness. Normally, grand jury witnesses, while not allowed to have attorneys in the grand jury room with them, can stop and consult with their attorneys. But our arrangement today, your attorneys are here and present for consultation. (OFF-MIKE) to consult with them as necessary, but it won't count against (OFF-MIKE). Do you understand that, sir?

CLINTON: I do understand that.

QUESTION: You have a privilege against self-incrimination. If a truthful answer to any question would tend to incriminate you, you can invoke the privilege and that application will not be used against you. Do you understand that?

CLINTON: I do.

QUESTION: And if you don't invoke it, however, any of the answers that you do give can and will be used against you. Do you understand that, sir?

CLINTON: I do.

QUESTION: Mr. President, do you understand that your testimony here today is under oath?

CLINTON: I do.

QUESTION: And do you understand that because you've been sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, that if you were to lie or intentionally mislead the grand jury you could be prosecuted for perjury and/or obstruction of justice?

CLINTON: I believe that's correct.

QUESTION: Is there anything that you -- I have stated to you regarding your rights and responsibilities that you would like me to clarify that you don't understand?

CLINTON: No, sir.

QUESTION: Mr. President, I'd like to read for you a portion of federal ...(ph) 603, which discusses the important function the oath has in our judicial system. It says that the purpose of the oath is 1) quote, "calculated to awaken the witness' conscience and impress the witness' mind with the duty" end quote -- to tell the truth. Could you please tell the grand jury what that oath means to you for today's testimony?

CLINTON: I have sworn an oath to tell the grand jury the truth and that's what I intend to do.

QUESTION: You understand it requires you to give the whole truth, that is a complete answer to each question, sir?

CLINTON: I will answer each question as accurately and fully as I can.

QUESTION: Now, you took the same oath to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth on January 17, 1998 in a deposition in the Paul Jones litigation, is that correct, sir?

CLINTON: I did take an oath there.

QUESTION: Did the oath you took on that occasion mean the same to you then as it does today?

CLINTON: I believed then that I had to answer the questions truthfully, that's correct.

QUESTION: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you, sir.

CLINTON: I believe that I had to answer the questions truthfully, that's correct.

QUESTION: And it meant the same to you then as it does today?

CLINTON: Well, no one read me a definition then and we didn't go through this exercise then. I swore an oath to tell the truth and I believed I was bound to be truthful and I tried to be.

QUESTION: At the Paula Jones deposition, you were represented by Mr. Robert Bennett, your counsel, is that correct?

CLINTON: That is correct.

QUESTION: He was authorized by you to be your representative, or your attorney, is that correct?

CLINTON: That is correct.

QUESTION: Your counsel, Mr. Bennett, indicated that -- page five of

the deposition, lines 10 through 12, I'm quoting: "The president intends to give full and complete answers as Ms. Jones is entitled to have." End quote.

QUESTION: My question to you is -- Do you agree with your counsel that his client in the sexual harassment case is, to use his words, entitled to have the truth"?

CLINTON: I believe that I was bound to give truthful answers. Yes, sir.

QUESTION: But the question is, sir, do you agree with your counsel that a plaintiff in a sexual harassment case is entitled to have the truth?

CLINTON: I believe when a witness is under oath in a civil case or otherwise under oath, the witness should do everything possible to answer the questions truthfully.

QUESTION: I want to turn over questioning now to Mr. Bittman of our office, Mr. President.

QUESTION: Good afternoon, Mr. President.

CLINTON: Good afternoon, Mr. Bittman.

QUESTION: My name is Robert Bittman. I'm an attorney with the Office of Independent Counsel. Mr. President, we are first going to turn to some of the details of your relationship with Monica Lewinsky that follow on your deposition that you provided in the Paula Jones case as was referenced on January 17, 1998. The questions are uncomfortable and I apologize for that in advance. I'll try to be as brief and direct as possible. Mr. President, were you physically intimate with Monica Lewinsky?

CLINTON: Mr. Bittman, I think maybe I can save the -- you and the grand jurors a lot of time if I read a statement which I think will make it clear what the nature of my relationship with Ms. Lewinsky was, how it related to the testimony I gave, what I was trying to do in that testimony. And I think it will perhaps make it possible for you to ask even more relevant questions from your point of view.

CLINTON: And with your permission, I'd like to read that statement.

UNKNOWN: Absolutely. Please, Mr. President.

CLINTON: When I was alone with Ms. Lewinsky on certain occasions in early 1996, and once in early 1997, I engaged in conduct that was wrong. These encounters did not consist of sexual intercourse. They did not constitute sexual relations, as I understood that term to be defined at my January 17th, 1998 deposition. But they did involve inappropriate, intimate contact. These inappropriate encounters ended at my insistence in early 1997. I also had occasional telephone conversations with Ms. Lewinsky that included inappropriate sexual banter. I regret that what began as a friendship came to include this conduct. And I take full responsibility for my actions. While I will provide the grand jury whatever other information I can, because of privacy considerations affecting my family, myself and others, and in an effort to preserve the dignity of the office I hold, this is all I will say about the specifics of these particular matters. I will try to answer to the best of my ability other questions, including questions about my relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, questions about my understanding of the term of sexual relations, as I understood it to be defined at my January 17th, 1998, deposition, and questions concerning alleged subordination of perjury, obstruction of justice and intimidation of witnesses.

CLINTON: That, Mr. Bittman, is my statement.

Lees verder

Transcript by The Federal Document Clearing House.

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