Dossier Clinton

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Transcriptie van Clintons verhoor voor de Grand Jury (17 aug. 1998). Ook als zip-bestand te downloaden.

Starr Report

Clintons reactie op het Starr Report

Clintons tweede reactie op het Starr Report

Monica Lewinsky

Linda Tripp

Paula Jones

QUESTION: Thank you, Mr. President. And we would like to take a break.

CLINTON: Would you like to have this?

QUESTION: Yes, please. As a matter of fact, why don't we have that marked as grand jury exhibit WBAC-1 (ph).

CLINTON: So, are we going to take a break?

QUESTION: Yes, we'll take a break. And we have the camera off now, please.

QUESTION: Mr. President, you statement indicates that your contacts with Ms. Lewinsky did not involve any inappropriate intimate contact. Mr. Bittman...

CLINTON: No, sir, indicates that it did inappropriate intimate contact.

QUESTION: OK, it did involve inappropriate intimate contact.

CLINTON: Yes, sir, it did.

(UNKNOWN): Mr. Bittman, the witness does not have a copy of his statement. We just have the one copy.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

(UNKNOWN): Thank you.

QUESTION: Was this contact with Ms. Lewinsky -- Mr. President, did it involve any sexual contact in any way, shape or form?

CLINTON: Mr. Bittman, I said in this statement I would like to stay to the terms of the statement. I think it's clear what inappropriately intimate is. I have said what it did not include. It did not include sexual intercourse, and I did not believe that it included conduct which falls within the definition I was given in the Jones deposition. And I would like to stay with that characterization.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) rule 2, the definition that was provided you during your deposition. We'll have that marked as grand jury exhibit WJC2. This is an exact copy, Mr. President, of the exhibit that was provided you during that deposition. And I'm sure you remember, throughout the deposition, that paragraph one of the definition remained in effect, that Judge Wright rule that that was to be the guiding definition in that paragraphs 2 and 3 were stricken. Do you remember that Mr. President?

CLINTON: Yes. Specifically what I remembered is there were two different discussions, I think, of this. There was quite an extended one in the beginning. And everybody was entering into it. And then in the end, the judge said that she would take the -- excuse me --the first definition and strike the rest of it. That's my memory.

QUESTION: Did you -- well, at page 19 of your deposition in the case, the attorney who provided you with the deposition asked you Would you please take whatever time you need to read the deposition.

QUESTION: And later on the deposition, you did, of course, refer to the deposition several times. Were you, during the deposition, familiar with the definition?

CLINTON: Yes, sir. My -- let me just ask a question. If you're going to ask me about my deposition, could I have a copy of it? Does anybody have a copy of it?

QUESTION: We have a copy we'll provide your counsel.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) entered into the (OFF-MIKE).

CLINTON: Now, you say that was on page 19, Mr. Bittman?

QUESTION: Page 19, Mr. President, beginning at line 21. I will read it in full. This is from the Jones attorney. "Would you please take whatever time you need to read this definition because when I use the term sexual relations, this is what I mean today."

CLINTON: Yes, sir. That stops on 19. Let me say that there is a -- just for the record -- if my recollection was accurate -- there was a long discussion here between the attorneys and the judge.

CLINTON: It goes on until page 23, and in the end, the judge says: I'm talking only about part one in the definition. And do you understand that? And I answered, "I do." So the judge says part one and then the lawyer for Ms. Jones says he's only talking about part one. And they asked me if I understand it, and I say I do. And that was my understanding. I might also note that when I was given this and began to ask questions about it, I circled number one. This is my circle here. I remember doing that so I could focus only on those two lines, which is what I did.

QUESTION: Did you understand the word in the first portion of the exhibit, Mr. President? That is for the purposes of this deposition, the person who engages in -- quote, unquote -- "sexual relations" that a person knowingly engages in or causes -- did you understand -- do you understand the words there in that phrase?

CLINTON: Yes. My -- I can tell you what my understanding of the definition is.

QUESTION: Sure.

CLINTON: If you want me to, let's (ph) do it.

CLINTON: My understanding of this definition is that it covers contact by the person being deposed with the enumerated areas, if the contact is done with an intent to arouse or gratify. That's my understanding of the definition.

QUESTION: What did you believe the definition to include and exclude? What kind of exclusions?

CLINTON: I thought the definition included any activity by the person being deposed where the person was the actor and came in contact with those parts of the body with the purpose or intent of gratification, and excluded any other activity. For example, kissing's not covered by that, I don't think.

QUESTION: Did you understand the definition to be limited to sexual activity?

CLINTON: Yes, I understood the definition to be limited to physical contact with those areas of the body with the specific intent to arouse or gratify. That's what I understood it to be.

QUESTION: What specific acts did the definition include, as you understood the definition on January 17th, 1998?

CLINTON: Any contact with the areas that are mentioned, sir. If you contacted those parts of the body with an intent to arouse or gratify, that is covered.

QUESTION: What did you understand...

CLINTON: The person being deposed. If the person being deposed contacted those parts of another person's body with an intent to arouse or gratify, that was covered.

QUESTION: What did you understand the word "causes" in the first phrase to mean? For the purposes of this deposition, the person engages in sexual relations when the person knowingly causes contact?

CLINTON: I don't know what that means. It doesn't make any sense to me in this context, because I think what I thought there was since this was some sort of, as I remember they said in the previous discussion -- and I'm only remembering now, so if I make a mistake, you can correct me is I remember from the previous discussion they said this was some kind of definition that had something to do with sexual harassment. So, that implies as forcing to me. And there was never any issue of forcing in the case involving well, any of these questions they were asking me. They made it clear in this discussion I just reviewed that what they were referring to was intentional sexual conduct, not some sort of forceable abusive behavior.

CLINTON: So I basically -- I don't think I paid any attention to it because it appeared to me that that was something that had no reference to the facts that they admitted they were asking me about.

QUESTION: So if I can be clear, Mr. President, is it -- was it your understanding back in January that definition, now marked as Grand Jury Exhibit 2, only included consensual sexual activity?

CLINTON: My understanding -- let me go back and say, my understanding -- I'll tell you what it did include. My understanding was, when I was giving it to you, was that what was covered in those first two lines was any direct contact by the person being deposed with those parts of another person's body if the contact was done with an intent to arouse or gratify. That's what I believed it meant. That's what I believed it meant then (AUDIO GAP); that's what I believe it means today.

QUESTION: I'm just trying to understand, Mr. President. You indicated that you put the definition in the context of a sexual harassment case...

CLINTON: No, no, I think it was not in the context of sexual harassment. I just re-read those four pages, which obviously the grand jury doesn't have. But there was some reference to the fact that this definition apparently bore some -- had some connection to some definition in another context and that this was being used not in that context, not necessarily in the context of sexual harassment. So I would think that this causes would be -- means to force someone to do something. That's what I read it. That's the only point I'm trying to make. Therefore, I did not believe that any one had ever suggested that I had forced anyone to do anything and I did not do that. And so, that could not have had any bearing on any questions relating to Ms. Lewinsky.

QUESTION: I suppose since you have now read portions of the transcripts and that you were reminded that you did not ask for any clarification of the terms, is that correct? Of the definition?

CLINTON: No, sir, I thought it was a rather -- when I read it, I thought it was a rather strange definition. But it was the one the judge decided on, and I was bound by it, so I took it.

QUESTION: During the deposition, you remember that Ms. Lewinsky's name came up and you were asked several questions about her. Do you remember that?

CLINTON: Yes, sir. I do.

QUESTION: During those -- before those questions actually got started, your attorney, Mr. Bennett, objected to any questions about Ms. Lewinsky. And he represented to Judge Wright, who was presiding that was unusual, wasn't it? -- that a federal judge would come and actually -- in your experience, that a federal judge would come and preside at a deposition?

KENDALL: Excuse me. Could you identify the transcript page from which Mr. Bennett objected to all testimony about Ms. Lewinsky before it got started?

QUESTION: The objection -- the quote that I'm referring to is going to begin at page 54 of the deposition.

QUESTION: Mr. President, is it unusual for a federal judge to preside over a civil deposition?

CLINTON: I think it is, but this was an unusual case. I believe I know why she did it.

QUESTION: Your attorney, Mr. Bennett, objected to the questions about Ms. Lewinsky, didn't he?

CLINTON: What page is that on, sir?

QUESTION: Page 54. He questions whether the attorneys for Ms. Jones had a good-faith basis to ask some of the questions that they were posing to you. His objections actually begin on page 53. Since the president points out to the grand jurors, correctly, do not have a copy of the deposition, I will read the portion that I'm referring to. And this begins at line 1 of page 54. I question the good faith of counsel, the innuendo of the question. Counsel is fully aware that Ms. Lewinsky has filed -- has an affidavit, which they are in possession of, saying that there is absolutely no sex of any kind in any manner, shape or form with President Clinton."

CLINTON: Where is that?

QUESTION: That is on page 54, beginning at line 1. About midway through line 1.

CLINTON: Well, actually, in the present tense, that's an accurate statement. That was an actual -- that was an accurate statement. If -- I don't -- I think what Mr. Bennett was concerned about, if I -- maybe it would be helpful to you and to the grand jurors, quite apart from these comments, if I could tell you what his state of mind was and what my state of mind was and why I think he read (ph) it (ph) to him in the first place. If you don't want me to do it, I won't. But I think it will help to explain a lot of this.

QUESTION: Well, we are interested -- I know from the questions that we received from the grand jurors they are interested in knowing what was going on in your mind when you were reading Grand Jury Exhibit 2 and what you understood that definition to include. Our question goes to whether -- and you were familiar with (ph) what Mr. Bennett was referring to, obviously, as Ms. Lewinsky's affidavit. And we will have that marked, Mr. President, as Grand Jury Exhibit WJC 4. Do you remember what Ms. Lewinsky's affidavit said, that she had had no sexual relationship with you? Do you remember that?

CLINTON: I do.

QUESTION: Do you remember in the deposition that Mr. Bennett asked you about that? This is at the end of the -- of the -- toward the end of the deposition. And you indicated -- he asked you whether the statement that Ms. Lewinsky made in her affidavit was true. And you indicated that it was absolutely correct.

CLINTON: I did. And at the time that she made the statement --and indeed, to the present day, because as far as I know she was never deposed since the judge ruled she would not be permitted to testify in a case the judge ruled had no merit -- that is this case we're talking about -- I believe at the time that she filled out this affidavit, if she believed that the definition of sexual relationship was two people having intercourse, then this is accurate. And I believe that is the definition that most ordinary Americans would give it. If you said Jane and Harry had a sexual relationship -- and they're not talking about people being drawn into a lawsuit and being given a definition and then a great effort to trick them in some way -- but you're just talking about people in an ordinary conversation, I bet the grand jurors, if they were talking about two people they know and said they had a sexual relationship, they meant they were sleeping together. They meant they were having intercourse together. So I'm not at all sure that this affidavit is not true and was not true in Ms. Lewinsky's mind at the time she swore (ph) it out.

QUESTION: Did you talk with Ms. Lewinsky about what she meant to write in her affidavit?

CLINTON: I didn't talk to her about her definition. I did not know what was in this affidavit before it was filled out, specifically. I did not know what words was used -- were used specifically before it was filled out or what meaning she gave to them. But I'm just telling you that it's certainly true what she says here, that we didn't have -- there was no employment or benefit in exchange. There was nothing having anything to do with sexual harassment. And if she defined sexual relationship in the way I think most Americans do, meaning intercourse, then she told the truth.

CLINTON: And that depends on what was in her mind. I don't know what is her mind. You'll have to ask her that.

QUESTION: But you indicated before that you were aware of what she intended by the term sexual relationship.

CLINTON: No, sir. I said I thought that -- that this could be a truthful affidavit. And when I read it, since that's the way I would define it -- since keep in mind she was not -- she was not bound by this sexual relations definition, which is highly unusual. I think anybody would admit that. When she used two different terms, sexual relationship, if she meant by that what most people mean by it, then that is not an untruthful statement.

QUESTION: So your definition of sexual relationship is intercourse only, is that correct?

CLINTON: No, not necessarily intercourse only, but it would include intercourse. I believe -- I believe that the common understanding of the term, if you say two people are having a sexual relationship, most people believe that includes intercourse. So if that's what Ms. Lewinsky thought, then this is a truthful affidavit. I don't know what was in her mind, but if that's what she thought, the affidavit is true.

QUESTION: What else would sexual relationship include besides intercourse?

CLINTON: Well, that -- I think -- let me answer what I said before. I think most people when they use that term include sexual relationships and what other -- whatever other sexual contact is involved in a particular relationship. But they think it includes intercourse as well. And I would have thought so before I got into this case and heard all I've heard and seen all I've seen -- I would have thought that's what nearly everybody thought it meant.

QUESTION: Well, I ask, Mr. President, because your (ph) using the very document -- grand jury exhibit 4, WJC 4 --- represented to Judge Wright that his (ph) understanding of the meaning of that affidavit, which you've indicated you thought Ms. Lewinsky thought was -- was just intercourse. He says to Judge Wright that it meant absolutely no sex of any kind in any manner, shape or form.

CLINTON: Well, let me say this: I didn't have any discussion, obviously, at this moment with Mr. Bennett. I'm not even sure I paid much attention to what he was saying. I was think -- I was ready to get on with my testimony here, and they were having these constant discussions all through the deposition. But that statement in the presence tense, at least, is not inaccurate, if that's what Mr. Bennett meant. But as -- at the time that he said that and for some time before, that would be a completely accurate statement. Now I don't believe that he was -- I don't know what he meant. You'd have to talk to him, because I just wasn't involved in this and I didn't pay much attention to what being said. I was just waiting for them to get back to me. So I can't comment on or be held responsible for whatever he said about that, I don't think.

QUESTION: Well, if you -- do you agree with me that he misled Judge Wright in some way, that you would have corrected the record and said, excuse me, Mr. Bennett, I think the judge is getting a misimpression by what you're saying?

CLINTON: Mr. Bennett was representing me. I wasn't representing him. And I wasn't even paying much attention to this conversation, which is why when you started asking me about this, I asked to see the deposition. I was focusing on my answers to the questions, and I told you what I believe about this deposition, which I believe to be true. And it's obvious -- and I think by your questions, you have betrayed that the Jones lawyers strategy in this case had nothing to do with uncovering or proving sexual harassment. By the time this discovery started, they knew they had a base case on the law. And they knew what our evidence was -- they knew they had a lousy case on the facts. And so their strategy, since they were being funded by my political opponents, was to have this dragnet of discovery.

CLINTON: They wanted to cover everybody. And they convinced the judge, because she gave them strict orders not to leave, that they should be treated like other plaintiffs in other civil cases. And how could they ever know whether there had been any sexual harassment unless they first knew whether there had been sex? And so with that broad mandate, limited by time and employment in the federal/state government, they proceeded to cross the country and try to turn up whatever they could -- not because they thought it would help their case. By the time they did this discovery, they knew what the deal was in that case. And they knew what was going to happen. Judge Wright subsequently threw it out. What they...

QUESTION: But...

CLINTON: Now let me finish, Mr. Bennett. You've got -- I mean, you brought this up. Excuse me, Mr. Bittman. What they wanted to do and what they did do and what they have done by the time I showed up here was to find any negative information they could on me, whether it was true or not. Get it in a deposition, and then leak it, even though it was illegal to do so. It happened repeatedly. The judge gave them orders. One of the reasons she was sitting in that deposition was because she was trying to make sure that it didn't get out of hand. But that was their strategy, and they did a good job of it. And they got away with it. I've been subject to quite a lot of illegal leaking. And they had a very determined, deliberate strategy, because their real goal was to hurt me. When they knew they couldn't win the lawsuit, they thought, well. maybe we can pummel him. Maybe they thought I'd settle. Maybe they just thought they would get some political advantage out of it. But that's what was going on here. Now, I'm trying to be honest with you and it hurts me. And I'm trying to tell you the truth about what happened between Ms. Lewinsky and me. But that does not change the fact that the real reason they were zeroing in on anybody was to try to get any person in there, no matter how uninvolved with Paula Jones, no matter how uninvolved with sexual harassment, so they could hurt me politically. That's what was going on, because by then, by this time, this thing had been going on a long time. They knew what our evidence was; they knew what the law was in the circuit in which we (ph) were bringing this case. And so they just thought that they would take a wrecking ball to me and see if they could do some damage.

QUESTION: Judge Wright had ruled that the attorneys in the Jones case were permitted to ask you certain questions.

CLINTON: She certainly did, and they asked them, and I did my best to answer them. I'm just trying to tell you what my state of mind was.

QUESTION: Was it your responsibility to answer those questions truthfully, Mr. President?

CLINTON: It was. But it was not my responsibility, in the face of their repeated illegal leaking, it was not my responsibility to volunteer a lot of information. There are many cases in this deposition where I gave -- and keep in mind, I prepared -- I treated them, frankly, with respect. I prepared very well for this deposition on the Jones' matters. I prepared very well on that. I did not know that Linda Tripp had been involved in the preparation of this deposition or that all of...

QUESTION: Do you know that now?

CLINTON: No, I don't. I just know that -- what I read in the papers about it. But I had no way of knowing that they would ask me all these detailed questions. I did the best I could to answer them.

QUESTION: Did you...

CLINTON: But in this deposition, Mr. Bittman, I was doing my best to be truthful. I was not trying to be particularly helpful to them. And I didn't think I had an obligation to be particularly helpful to them to further -- when I knew that there was no evidence here of sexual harassment. And I knew what they wanted to do was to leak this even though it was unlawful to do so. That's what I knew.

QUESTION: Did you believe, Mr. President, that you had an obligation to make sure that the presiding federal judge was on board and had the correct facts? Did you believe that was your obligation?

CLINTON: Sir, I was trying to answer my testimony. I was thinking about my testimony. I don't believe I ever even focused on what Mr. Bennett said in the exact words he did until I started reading this transcript carefully for this hearing. That moment, the whole argument just passed me by. I was a witness. I was trying to focus on what I said and how I said it. And believe me, I knew what the purpose of the deposition was.

CLINTON: And sure enough, by the way, it did all leak, just I knew it would.

QUESTION: Let me ask you, Mr. President, you indicate in your statement that you were alone with Ms. Lewinsky. Is that right?

CLINTON: Yes, sir.

QUESTION: How many times were you alone with Ms. Lewinsky?

CLINTON: Let me begin with the correct answer -- I don't know for sure. But if you would like me to give an educated guess, I will do that. But I do not know for sure. And I will tell you what I think based on what I remember. But I can't be held to a specific time because I don't have records of all of them.

QUESTION: How many times do you think?

Lees verder

Transcript by The Federal Document Clearing House.

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