Dossier Clinton

Actueel

Transcriptie van Clintons verhoor voor de Grand Jury (17 aug. 1998). Ook als zip-bestand te downloaden.

Starr Report

Clintons reactie op het Starr Report

Clintons tweede reactie op het Starr Report

Monica Lewinsky

Linda Tripp

Paula Jones

CLINTON: I mean just what I said. But I'd like to ask the grand jury, because I think I have been quite specific and I think I've been willing to answer some specific questions that I haven't been asked yet, but I do not want to discuss something that is intensely painful to me. This has been tough enough already on me and on my family, although I take responsibility for it. I have no one to blame but myself. What I meant was, and what they can infer that I meant was, that I did things that were -- when I was alone with her that were inappropriate and wrong, but that they did not include any activity that I -- that was within the definition of sexual relations that I was given by Judge Wright in the deposition. I said that I did not do those things that were in that -- within that definition and I testified truthfully to that. And that's all I can say about it. Now, you know, if there's any doubt on the part of the grand jurors about whether I believe some kind of activity falls within that definition or outside that definition, I'd be happy to try to answer that.

QUESTION: Well, I have a question regarding your definition. And my question is, is oral sex performed on you within that definition as you understood it?

CLINTON: As I understood it, it was not, no.

QUESTION: The grand jurors would like to know upon what basis -- what legal basis you're declining to answer more specific questions about this. I've mentioned to you that obviously you have privileges -- privileges against self-incrimination. There's no general right not to answer questions. And so one of the questions from the grand jurors is what basis -- what legal basis are you declining to answer these questions?

CLINTON: I'm not trying to evade my legal obligations or my willingness to help the grand jury achieve their legal obligation. As I understand it, you want to examine whether you believe I told the truth in my deposition, whether I asked Ms. Lewinsky not to tell the truth, and whether I did anything else, with evidence or in any other way, that amounted to an obstruction of justice or a subornation of perjury. And I'm prepared to answer all questions that I -- that the grand jury needs to draw that conclusion. Now respectfully, I believe the grand jurors can ask me if I believe just like that grand juror did -- could ask me, do you believe that this conduct falls within that definition. If it does, then you're free to conclude that my testimony is that I didn't do that. And I believe that you can achieve that without requiring me to say and do things that I don't think are necessary, and that I think, frankly, go too far in trying to criminalize my private life.

QUESTION: If a person touched another person -- you touched another person on the breasts, would that be, in your view, and was it within your view, when you took the deposition, within the definition of sexual relations?

CLINTON: If the person being deposed -- in this case me -- directly touched the breasts of another person, with the purpose to arouse or gratify, under that definition, that would be included.

QUESTION: Only directly, sir, or would it be directly or through clothes?

CLINTON: Well, I would -- I think the common-sense definition would be directly. That's how I would infer what it means.

QUESTION: If the person being deposed kissed the breasts of another person, would that be in the definition of sexual relations as you understood it when you were under oath in the Jones case?

CLINTON: Yes, that would constitute contact. I think that would, if it were direct contact, I believe it would. I -- maybe I should read it again, just to make sure. (PAUSE) This basically says if there was any direct contact with an intent to arouse or gratify, if that was the intent of the contact, then that would fall within the definition. That's correct.

QUESTION: So touching in your view then and now -- the person being deposed touching or kissing the breast of another person would fall within the definition?

CLINTON: That's correct, sir.

QUESTION: And you testified that you didn't have sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky in the Jones deposition, under that definition, correct?

CLINTON: That's correct, sir.

QUESTION: If the person being deposed touched the genitalia of another person, would that be in -- with the intent to arouse the sexual desire, arouse or gratify, as defined in definition one, would that be, under your understanding, then and now, sexual relations?

CLINTON: Yes, sir.

QUESTION: Yes, it would?

CLINTON: Yes, it would if you had a direct contact with any of these places in the body, if you had direct contact with intent to arouse or gratify, that would fall within the definition.

QUESTION: So you didn't do any of those three things with Monica Lewinsky?

CLINTON: You are free to infer that my testimony is that I did not have sexual relations as I understood this term to be defined.

QUESTION: Including touching her breast, kissing her breast or touching her genitalia?

CLINTON: That's correct.

QUESTION: Would you agree with me that the -- insertion of an object into the genitalia of another person with the desire to gratify sexually would fit within the definition you used in the Jones case as sexual relations?

CLINTON: There is nothing here about that, is there? I don't know that I ever thought about that one way or the other.

QUESTION: The question is, under the definition as you understood it then, under the definition as you understand it now -- pardon me, just a minute. Pardon me, Mr. President. Deposition -- Exhibit 1, question 1 under the -- in the Jones case, definition of sexual relations.

QUESTION: Do you have that before you, Mr. President?

CLINTON: I do, sir. I have got it right here. I'm looking at it.

QUESTION: As you understood the definition then and as you understood it now, would it include sticking an object into the genitalia of another person in order to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person? Would it constitute, in other words, contact with the genitalia? If an object...

CLINTON: I don't know the answer to that. I suppose you could argue that since Section 2, Paragraph 2 was eliminated, and Paragraph 2 actually dealt with the object issue, that perhaps whoever wrote this didn't intend for Paragraph 1 to cover an object and basically meant direct contact. So if I were asked -- I've not been asked this question before, but I guess that's the way I would read it.

QUESTION: If it -- that it would not be covered, that activity would not be covered.

CLINTON: That's right. If the activity you just mentioned would be covered in number two and number two was stricken, I think you can infer logically that Paragraph 1 was not intended to cover. But as I said, I've not been asked this before. I'm just doing the best I can here.

QUESTION: Well, if someone were to hold or a judge were to hold that you're incorrect, and that definition one does include the hypo I've given to you -- because we're talking in hypos so that you don't -- under your request here -- if someone were to tell you or rule that you're wrong, that the insertion of an object into somebody else's genitalia with the intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person is within definition one... MORE .ETX

KENDALL: Mr. Wisenberg, excuse me. I have not objected heretofore to any question you've asked. I must tell you, I cannot understand that question. I think it's improper, and if the witness can understand it, he may answer it.

QUESTION: I'll be happy to rephrase it. If you're wrong and it's within definition one, did you engage in sexual relations, under the definition, with Monica Lewinsky?

CLINTON: Mr. Wisenberg, I have said all along that I would say what I thought it meant, and you could infer that I didn't. This is an unusual question, but it's a slippery slope. I -- we can -- I have tried to deal with some very delicate areas here, and in one case, I've given you a very forthright answer about what I thought was not within here. All I can tell you is whatever I thought was covered -- and I thought about this carefully. And let me just point out, this was uncomfortable for me. I had to acknowledge, because of this definition, that under this definition I had actually had sexual relations once with Gennifer Flowers, a person who had spread all kinds ridiculous, dishonest, exaggerated stories about me for money. And I knew when I did that it would be leaked. It was. And I was embarrassed. But I did it. So I tried to read this carefully. I can tell you what I thought it covered. And I can tell you that I do not believe I did anything that I thought was covered by this.

QUESTION: As I understand your testimony, Mr. President, touching somebody's breast with the intent to arouse, with the intent to arouse or gratify sexual desire of any person, is covered. Kissing the breast is covered. Touching the genitalia is covered, correct?

KENDALL: In fairness, the witness said (ph) directly in each one of those cases.

QUESTION: Directly is covered, correct?

CLINTON: I believe it is. Yes, sir.

QUESTION: Oral sex, in your view, is not covered, correct?

CLINTON: If performed on the deponent.

QUESTION: Is not covered, correct?

CLINTON: That's my reading of this number one.

QUESTION: And you're declining to answer the hypothetical about insertion of an object. I need to inform you, Mr. President -- but we'll go on, at least for now -- but I need to inform you that the grand jury will consider your not answering the questions more directly in their determination of whether or not they're going to issue another subpoena. Let me switch the topic and talk to you about John Podesta and some of the other aides you met with and spoke to after this story became public on January 21st, 1998, the day of The Washington Post story. Do you recall meeting with him around January 23rd, 1998, Friday a.m. in your study, two days after The Washington Post story, and extremely explicitly telling him that you didn't have -- engage in any kind of sex in any way, shape or form with Monica Lewinsky, including oral sex?

CLINTON: I meet with John Podesta almost every day. I meet with a number of people. And the only thing I -- what happened in the couple of days after what you did was revealed is a blizzard to me. The only thing I recall is that I met with certain people, and a few of them I said I didn't have sex with Monica Lewinsky, or I didn't have an affair with her or something like that. I had a very careful thing. I said -- and I tried not to say anything else. And I -- it might be that John Podesta was one of them. But I do not remember the specific meeting about which you asked or the specific comments to which you referred.

QUESTION: You don't remember...

CLINTON: Seven months ago, I'd have no way to remember, no.

QUESTION: You don't remember denying any kind of sex in any way, shape or form with him, including oral sex, correct?

CLINTON: I remember that I issued a number of denials to people that I thought needed to hear them, but I tried to be careful and to be accurate in them. And I do not remember what I said to John Podesta.

QUESTION: Surely, if you told him that, that would be a falsehood, correct?

CLINTON: Oh, I didn't say that, sir. I didn't say that at all. That is not covered by the definition, and I did not address it in my statement.

QUESTION: Well, let me ask you then. If you told him -- perhaps he thought it was covered. I don't know. But if you told him, if you denied to him sex in any way, shape or form -- kind of similar to what Mr. Bennett did at the deposition, including oral sex -- wouldn't that have been a falsehood?

CLINTON: Now, Mr. Wisenberg, I told you, in response to a grand jury's question -- you asked me did I believe that oral sex performed on the person who was being deposed was covered by that definition. And I

said: No. I don't believe it's covered by the definition. I said you were free to conclude that I did not do things that I believe were covered by the definition. And you've asked me a number of questions, and I have acknowledged things that I believe are covered by the definition. Since that was not covered by the definition, I want to fall back on my statement. Look, I'm not trying to be evasive here. I'm trying to protect my privacy, my family's privacy, and I'm trying to stick to what the deposition was about. If the deposition wasn't about this and didn't cover it, then I don't believe that I should be required to go beyond my statement.

QUESTION: Mr. President, it's not our intent to embarrass you, but since we have to look, among other things, at obstruction of justice, questions of obstruction of justice and perjury, the answer to some of these delicate and unfortunate questions are absolutely required. And that is the purpose that we have to ask them for.

CLINTON: That's not...

QUESTION: I'm unaware of any...

CLINTON: Mr. Wisenberg, with respect, you don't need to know the answer for that if the answer -- no matter what the answer is -- wouldn't constitute perjury because it wasn't sexual relations as defined by the judge. The only reason you need to know that is for some other reason. It couldn't have anything to do with perjury.

QUESTION: Mr. President, one of the -- one of the nice things about one of the normal things about an investigation and a grand jury investigation is if the grand jurors and the prosecutors get to ask the questions unless they're improper and unless there's a legal basis. As I understand from your answers, there's no legal basis for which you decline to answer these questions. And I'll ask you again to answer the question. I'm unaware of any legal basis for you not to. If you told the...

KENDALL: Well, if you just -- could you just restate the question, please?

QUESTION: The question is if you told John Podesta two days after the story broke something to this effect -- that you didn't have any kind of sex in any way, shape or form, including oral sex, with Ms. Lewinsky. Were you telling him the truth?

CLINTON: And let me say again, with respect, this is an indirect way to try to get me to testify to questions that have no bearing on whether I committed perjury. You apparently agree that it has no bearing on whether...

QUESTION: No, I don't. I don't agree.

CLINTON: ... I committed perjury.

QUESTION: Mr. President, I'm sorry, with respect, I don't agree with that. I'm not going to argue with you about it. I just am going to ask you again -- in fact, direct you -- to answer the question.

CLINTON: I'm not going to answer that question because I believe it's a question about conduct that, whatever the answer to it is, would does not bear on the perjury because oral sex performed on the deponent under this definition is not sexual relations. It is not covered by this definition.

KENDALL: The witness is not declining to tell you anything he said to John Podesta.

QUESTION: The -- you denied -- the witness is not declining to tell me anything. Did you deny oral sex in any way, shape or form to John Podesta?

CLINTON: I told you so before and I will say again -- in the aftermath of this story breaking, and what was told about it, the next two days, the next three days are just a blur to me. I don't remember to whom I talked, when I talked to them or what I said.

QUESTION: So you're not declining to answer. You just don't remember.

CLINTON: I honestly don't remember -- no. I'm not saying that anybody who had a contrary memory is wrong. I do not remember.

QUESTION: Do you recall denying any sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky to the following people -- Harry Thomason, Erskine Bowles, Harold Ickes, Mr. Podesta, Mr. Blumenthal, Mr. Jordan, Ms. Betty Currie?

QUESTION: Do you recall denying any sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky to those individuals?

CLINTON: I recall telling a number of those people that I didn't have -- either I didn't have an affair with Monica Lewinsky or I didn't have sex with her. And I believe, sir, that you will have to ask them what they thought. But I was using those terms in the normal way people use them. You will have to ask them what they thought I was saying.

QUESTION: If they testify that you denied a sexual relations -- or relationship with Monica Lewinsky, or if they told us that you denied that, do you have any reason to doubt, in the days after the story broke? Do you have any reason to doubt?

CLINTON: No. The -- let me say this: It's no secret to anybody that I hoped that this relationship would never become public. It's a matter of fact that it had been many, many months since there had anything improper about it in terms of improper contact.

QUESTION: Did you...

CLINTON: I really...

QUESTION: ... deny it to them or not, Mr. President?

CLINTON: Let me finish. So what -- I did not want to mislead my friends, but I wanted to find language where I could say that. I also, frankly, did not want to turn any of them into witnesses, because -- and sure enough, they all became witnesses.

QUESTION: Well, you knew they were...

CLINTON: And so...

QUESTION: ... going to be witnesses, didn't you?

CLINTON: And so I said to them things that were true about this relationship. That I used -- in the language I used, I said there is nothing going on between us. That was true. I said I have not had sex with her, as I define it. That was true. And that I hoped that I would never have to be here on this day giving this testimony? Of course. But I also didn't want to do anything to complicate this matter further. So I said things that were true. They may have been misleading, and if they were, I will have take responsibility for it, and I'm sorry.

QUESTION: They may have been misleading, sir, and you knew, though, after January 21st, when The Post article broke and said that Judge Starr was looking into this, you knew that they might be witnesses. You knew that they might be called into a grand jury, didn't you?

CLINTON: I think I was quite careful what I said after that. I may have said something to all of these people to that effect, but I -- I also -- whenever anybody asks me any details, I said, look, I don't want you to be a witness, or I turn you into a witness, or give you information that could get you in trouble. I just wouldn't talk. I, by and large, didn't talk to people about this.

QUESTION: If all of these people -- let's leave out Mrs. Currie for a minute. Vernon Jordan, Sid Blumenthal, John Podesta, Harold Ickes, Erskine Bowles, Harry Thomason -- after the story broke, after Judge Starr's involvement was known on January 21st, it said that you denied a sexual relationship with them? Are you denying that?

CLINTON: No. I'm just telling...

QUESTION: When you told us that you...

CLINTON: ... you what I meant by it. I told you what I meant by it when we (ph) started this deposition.

QUESTION: You told us now that you were being careful, but that it might have been misleading, is that correct?

CLINTON: It might have been. Since we have seen this four-year, $40 million investigation come down to parsing the definition of sex, I think it might have been. I don't think at the time that I thought that's what this was going to be about. In fact, if you looked at the headlines at the time -- even you mentioned that Post story. All the headlines were -- and all the talking -- the people who talked about this, including a lot who had been quite sympathetic to your operation, said, well, this is not really a story about sex or this is a story about subordination of perjury and these talking points and all this other stuff. So I -- what I was trying to do was to give them something they could that would be true, even if misleading, in the context of this deposition, and keep them out of trouble, and let's deal -- and deal with the -- what I thought was the almost ludicrous suggestion that I had urged someone to lie or tried to suborn perjury in other ways.

QUESTION: I want to go over some questions again. I don't think you're going to answer them (OFF-MIKE), and so I don't need a lengthy response, just a yes or a no. And I understand the basis upon which you are not answering them, but I need to ask them for the record. If Monica Lewinsky says that while you were in the Oval Office area you touched her breasts, would she be lying?

CLINTON: Let me say something about all this.

QUESTION: All I really need for you, Mr. President...

CLINTON: I know. But...

QUESTION: ... I want (ph) an (ph) answer under the previous grounds or to answer the question, you see, because we only have four hours and your answers have been extremely lengthy.

CLINTON: I know -- well it's -- I know that. I'll give you four hours and 30 seconds, if you'll let me say something general about this. I will answer to your satisfaction that I won't -- based on my statement I will not answer. I would like 30 seconds at the end to make a statement. And you can have 30 seconds more on your time, if you'll let me say this to the grand jury and to you. And I don't think it's disrespectful at all. I've had a lot of time to think about this. But go ahead and ask your questions.

QUESTION: The question is, if Monica Lewinsky says that while you were in the Oval Office area, you touched her breast, would she be lying?

CLINTON: That is not my recollection. My recollection is that I did not have sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky. And I'm staying on my former statement about that.

QUESTION: If she said...

CLINTON: My statement is that I did not have sexual relations as defined by that.

QUESTION: If she says that you kissed her breast, would she be lying?

CLINTON: I'm going to revert to my former statement.

QUESTION: OK. If Monica Lewinsky says that, while you were in the Oval Office area you touched her genitalia, would she be lying? That calls for a yes, no, or reverting to your former statement.

CLINTON: I will revert to my statement on that.

QUESTION: If Monica Lewinsky says that you used a cigar as a sexual aid with her in the Oval Office area, would she be lying? Yes, no, or won't answer?

CLINTON: I will revert to my former statement.

QUESTION: If Monica Lewinsky says that you had phone sex with her, would she be lying?

CLINTON: Well, that is -- at least, in general terms, I think, is covered by my statement. I addressed that in my statement. And I don't believe it's...

QUESTION: Let me define phone sex for purposes of my question. Phone sex occurs when the party to the phone conversation masturbates while the other party is talking in a sexually explicit manner. The question is, if Monica Lewinsky says that you had phone sex with her, would she be lying?

CLINTON: I think that is covered by my statement.

QUESTION: Did you on or about January 13, 1998, Mr. President, ask Erskine Bowles to ask John Hilley if he would give a recommendation for Monica Lewinsky?

CLINTON: In 1998?

QUESTION: Yes. On or about January 13, 1998, did you ask Erskine Bowles, your chief of staff, if he would ask John Hilley to give a recommendation for Monica Lewinsky?

CLINTON: At some point, sir, I believe I talked to Erskine Bowles about whether Monica Lewinsky could get a recommendation that was not negative from the Legislative Affairs Office. I believe I did.

QUESTION: I just didn't hear the very last part.

CLINTON: I think the answer is -- I think -- yes, at some point I talked to Erskine Bowles about this. I do not know what the date was. At some point, I did talk to him.

QUESTION: And if Erskine Bowles has said, has told us that he told John Podesta to carry out your wishes, and John Podesta states that it was three or four days before your deposition, which would be the 13th or the 14th, are you in a position to deny that?

CLINTON: The 13th or 14th of...

QUESTION: January, as to date?

CLINTON: I don't know. I don't know when the date was.

QUESTION: OK.

CLINTON: I'm not in a position to deny it. I won't deny it. I'm sure that they're both truthful men. I don't know when the date was.

QUESTION: Do you recall asking Erskine Bowles to...

CLINTON: I recall talking to Erskine Bowles about that. And my recollection is, sir, that Ms. Lewinsky was moving to New York, wanted to get a job in the private sector, was confident she would get a good recommendation from the Defense Department. and was concerned that, because she had been moved from the Legislative Affairs Office, transferred to the Defense Department, that her ability to get a job might be undermined by a bad recommendation from the Legislative Affairs Office. So I asked Erskine if we could get her a recommendation that just was at least neutral so that, if she had a good recommendation from the Defense Department, it wouldn't prevent her from getting a job in the private sector.

QUESTION: If Mr. Bowles has told us that, in fact, you told him that she already had a job, and had already listed Mr. Hilley as a reference, and wanted him to be available as a recommendation, would you be -- is that inconsistent with your memory?

CLINTON: A little bit. But I think -- my memory is that when you're when you get a job like that, you have to give them a resume which says where you've worked and who your supervisor was. And I think that that's my recollection. My recollection is that -- slightly different from that.

QUESTION: And who was it that asked you to do that on Monica Lewinsky's behalf?

CLINTON: I think she did. You know, she tried for months and months to get a job back in the White House, not so much in the West Wing, but somewhere in the White House complex, including the Old Executive Office Building. And she talked to Marsha Scott, among others. She very much wanted to come back. And she interviewed for some jobs but never got one. And she was, from time to time, upset about it. And I think what she was afraid of is that she couldn't get a -- from the minute she left the White House she was worried about this, that she would -- that if she didn't come back to the White House and work for a while and get a good job recommendation, that no matter how well she had done at the Pentagon, it might hurt her future employment prospects. Well, it became obvious that, you know, her mother had moved to New York. She wanted to go to New York. She wasn't going to get a job in the White House. So she wanted to get a job in the private sector, and she said that, "I hope that I won't get a letter out of the Legislative Affairs Office that will prevent my getting a job in the private sector." And that's what I talked to Erskine about. Now, that's my entire memory of this.

QUESTION: All right. I want to go back briefly to the december 28th conversation with Ms. Lewinsky. I believe you testified to the effect that she asked you -- What if they ask me about gifts she gave me? My question to you is, after that statement by her, did you ever have a conversation with Betty Currie about gifts or picking something up for Monica Lewinsky?

CLINTON: I don't believe I did, sir. No.

QUESTION: You never told her anything to this effect -- that Monica has something to give you? That is to say, Betty Currie?

CLINTON: No, sir, I didn't. I don't have any memory of that whatever.

QUESTION: And so you have no knowledge that -- or you had no knowledge at the time that Betty Currie went and picked up -- your secretary went and picked up from Monica Lewinsky -- items that were called for by the Jones subpoena and hid them under her bed? You had no knowledge that anything remotely like that was going to happen?

CLINTON: I did not. I did not know she had those items, I believe, until that was made public.

QUESTION: And you agree with me that that would be a very wrong thing to do, to hide evidence in a civil case or any case? Isn't that true?

CLINTON: Yes. I don't know that Miss Currie knew that that's what she had at all. But...

QUESTION: I'm not saying she did. I'm just saying...

CLINTON: I had -- it is -- if Monica Lewinsky did that after they had been subpoenaed, and she knew what she was doing, she should not have done that. And I...

QUESTION: And if you...

CLINTON: And indeed, I myself told her, if they ask you for gifts, you have to give them what you have. And I don't understand if, in fact, she was worried about this why she was so worried about it. It was no big deal.

QUESTION: I want to talk about a december 17th phone conversation you had with Monica Lewinsky at approximately 2 a.m. Do you recall making that conversation and telling her initially about the death of Betty's brother, but then telling her that she was on the witness list, and that it broke your heart that she was on the witness list?

CLINTON: No, sir, I don't. But it would -- it -- it would -- it is quite possible that that happened because if you remember earlier in this meeting, you asked me some questions about what I'd said to Monica about testimony and affidavits, and I was struggling to try to remember whether this happened in a meeting or a phone call. Now I remember I called her to tell her Betty's brother had died. I remember that. And I know it was in the middle of december, and I believe it was before Monica had been subpoenaed. So I think it is quite possible that, if I called her at that time and had not talked to her since the sixth -- and you asked me this earlier -- I believe when I saw her on the sixth, I don't think I knew she was on the witness list then. Then it's quite possible I would say something like that. I don't have any memory of it, but I certainly wouldn't dispute that I might have said that.

Q: And in that conversation, or in any conversation in which you informed her she was on the witness list, did you tell her, you know, you can always say that you were coming to see Betty or bringing me letters? Did you tell her anything like that?

A: I don't remember. She was coming to see Betty. I can tell you this. I absolutely never asked her to lie.

Q: Sir, every time she came to see Betty and you were in the Oval Office, she was coming to see you, too, wasn't she, or just about every time?

A: I think just about every time. I don't think every time. I think there was a time or two where she came to see Betty when she didn't see me.

Q: So, do you remember telling her any time, any time when you told her, or after you told her that she was on the witness list, something

to this effect: You know, you can always say you were coming to see Betty, or you were bringing me letters?

A: I don't remember exactly what I told her that night.

Q: Did you --

A: I don't remember that. I remember talking about the nature of our relationship, how she got in. But I also will tell you that I felt quite comfortable that she could have executed a truthful affidavit, which would not have disclosed the embarrassing details of the relationship that we had had, which had been over for many, many months by the time this incident occurred.

Q: Did you tell her anytime in december something to the effect: You know, you can always say that you were coming to see Betty or you were bringing me letters? Did you say that, or anything like that, in december '97 or January '98, to Monica Lewinsky?

A: Well, that's a very broad question. I do not recall saying anything like that in connection with her testimony. I could tell you what I do remember saying, if you want to know. But I don't -- we might have talked about what to do in a non legal context at some point in the past, but I have no specific memory of that conversation. I do remember what I said to her about the possible testimony.

Q: You would agree with me, if you did say something like that to her, to urge her to say that to the Jones people, that would be part of an effort to mislead the Jones people, no matter how evil they are and corrupt?

A: I didn't say they were evil. I said what they were doing here was wrong, and it was.

Q: Wouldn't that be misleading?

A: Well, again, you are trying to get me to characterize something that I'm -- that I don't know if I said or not, without knowing whether the whole, whether the context is complete or not. So, I would have to know, what was the context, what were all the surrounding facts.

I can tell you this: I never asked Ms. Lewinsky to lie. The first time that she raised with me the possibility that she might be a witness or I told her -- you suggested the possibility in this december 17th timeframe -- I told her she had to get a lawyer. And I never asked her to lie.

Q: Did you ever say anything like that, you can always say that you were coming to see Betty or bringing me letters? Was that part of any kind of a, anything you said to her or a cover story, before you had any idea she was going to be part of Paula Jones?

A: I might well have said that.

Q: Okay.

A: Because I certainly didn't want this to come out, if I could help it. And I was concerned about that. I was embarrassed about it. I knew it was wrong. And, you know, of course, I didn't want it to come out. But --

Q: But you are saying that you didn't say anything -- I want to make sure I understand. Did you say anything like that once you knew or thought she might be a witness in the Jones case? Did you repeat that statement, or something like it to her?

A: Well, again, I don't recall, and I don't recall whether I might have done something like that, for example, if somebody says, what if the reporters ask me this, that or the other thing. I can tell you

this: In the context of whether she could be a witness, I have a recollection that she asked me, well, what do I do if I get called as a witness, and I said, you have to get a lawyer. And that's all I said. And I never asked her to lie.

Q: Did you tell her to tell the truth?

A: Well, I think the implication was she would tell the truth. I've already told you that I felt strongly that she could issue, that she could execute an affidavit that would be factually truthful, that might get her out of having to testify. Now, it obviously wouldn't if the Jones people knew this, because they knew that if they could get this and leak it, it would serve their larger purposes, even if the judge ruled that she couldn't be a witness in the case. The judge later ruled she wouldn't be a witness in the case. The judge later ruled the case had no merit. So, I knew that. And did I hope she'd be able to get out of testifying on an affidavit? Absolutely. Did I want her to execute a false affidavit? No, I did not.

Q: If Monica Lewinsky has stated that her affidavit that she didn't have a sexual relationship with you is, in fact, a lie, I take it you disagree with that?

A: No. I told you before what I thought the issue was there. I think the issue is how do you define sexual relationship. And there was no definition imposed on her at the time she executed the affidavit. Therefore, she was free to give it any reasonable meaning.

Q: And if she says she was lying --

A: And I believe --

Q: -- under your common sense ordinary meaning that you talked about earlier, Mr. President, that most Americans would have, if she says sexual relationship, saying I didn't have one was a lie because I had oral sex with the President, I take it, you would disagree with that?

A: Now, we're back to where we started and I have to invoke my statement. But, let me just say one thing. I've read a lot, and obviously I don't know whether any of it's accurate, about what she said, and what purports to be on those tapes. And this thing -- and I searched my own memory. This reminds me, to some extent, of the hearings when Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill were both testifying under oath. Now, in some rational way, they could not have both been telling the truth, since they had directly different accounts of a shared set of facts. Fortunately, or maybe you think unfortunately, there was no special prosecutor to try to go after one or the other of them, to take sides and try to prove one was a liar.

A: And so, Judge Thomas was able to go on and serve on the Supreme Court. What I learned from that, I can tell you that I was a citizen out there just listening. And when I heard both of them testify, what I believed after it was over, I believed that they both thought they were telling the truth. This is -- you're dealing with, in some ways, the most mysterious area of human life. I'm doing the best I can to give you honest answers.

Q: Mr. President --

A: And that's all I can say.

Q: I'm sorry.

A: And, you know, those people both testified under oath. So, if there'd been a special prosecutor, they could, one of them could have gone after Anita Hill, another could have gone after Clarence Thomas. I thank God there was no such thing then, because I don't believe that it was a proper thing.

Q: One of --

A: And I think they both thought they were telling the truth. So, maybe Ms. Lewinsky believes she's telling the truth, and I'm glad she got her mother and herself out of trouble. I'm glad you gave her that sweeping immunity. I'm glad for the whole thing. I, I, I -- it breaks my heart that she was ever involved in this.

Q: I want to go back to a question about Vernon Jordan. I want to go back to late december and early January, late december of '97 and early January of '98. During this time, Mr. President, you are being sued for sexual harassment by a woman who claims, among other things, that others got benefits that she didn't because she didn't have oral sex with you. While this is happening, your powerful friend, Vernon Jordan, is helping to get Monica Lewinsky a job and a lawyer. He's helping to get a job and a lawyer for someone who had some kind of sex with you, and who has been subpoenaed in the very case, the Jones case. Don't you see a problem with this? Didn't you see a problem with this.

A: No. Would you like to know why?

Q: Isn't that why -- I would. But isn't that why Vernon Jordan asked you on december 19th whether or not you had sexual relationships with Monica Lewinsky and why he asked her, because he knew it would be so highly improper to be helping her with a lawyer and a job if, in fact, she had had a relationship with you?

A: I don't know. I don't believe that at all. I don't believe that at all, particularly since, even if you look at the facts here in their light most unfavorable to me, no one has suggested that there was any sexual harassment on my part. And I don't think it was wrong to be helping her. Look --

Q: A subpoenaed witness in a case against you?

A: Absolutely. Look, for one thing, I had already proved in two ways that I was not trying to influence her testimony. I didn't order her to be hired at the White House. I could have done so. I wouldn't do it. She tried for months to get in. She was angry. Secondly, after I --

Q: Wasn't she kept --

A: After I terminated the improper contact with her, she wanted to come in more than she did. She got angry when she didn't get in sometimes. I knew that that might make her more likely to speak, and I still did it because I had to limit the contact. And thirdly, let me say, I formed an opinion really in early 1996, and again -- well, let me finish the sentence. I formed an opinion early in 1996, once I got into this unfortunate and wrong conduct, that when I stopped it, which I knew I'd have to do and which I should have done a long time before I did, that she would talk about it. Not because Monica Lewinsky is a bad person. She's basically a good girl. She's a good young woman with a good heart and a good mind. I think she is burdened by some unfortunate conditions of her, her upbringing. But she's basically a good person. But I knew that the minute there was no longer any contact, she would talk about this. She would have to. She couldn't help it. It was, it was a part of her psyche. So, I had put myself at risk, sir. I was not trying to buy her silence or get Vernon Jordan to buy her silence. I thought she was a good person. She had not been involved with me for a long time in any improper way, several months, and I wanted to help her get on with her life. It's just as simple as that.

MR. WISENBERG: It's time for a break.

MR. KENDALL: OK. 4:49

(Whereupon, the proceedings were recessed from 4:49 p.m. until 5:05 p.m.)

MR. KENDALL: Bob, we are at 2 hours and 55 minutes.

MR. BITTMAN: Two hours and 55 minutes, thank you.

BY MR. BITTMAN:

Q: Mr. President.

A: Mr. Bittman.

Q: Apparently we have one hour and five minutes left, if we stick to the four-hour timeframe.

MR. KENDALL: Plus 30 seconds.

MR. BITTMAN: And 30 seconds, that's right.

THE WITNESS: You gave me my 30 seconds' soliloquy. So, I owe you 30 seconds.

BY MR. BITTMAN:

Q: You are very generous. That actually segues very nicely into one of the grand juror's asked, pointed out actually, that you indicated at the beginning of the deposition that you would, you would answer all the grand jurors, you wanted to answer all the grand jurors' questions. And they wanted to know whether you would be willing to stay beyond the four-hour period to, in fact, answer all their questions.

A: Well, let's see how we do in the next hour, and then we'll decide.

Q: Okay. Let me draw your attention to early January of this year, after Christmas, before your deposition. Do you remember talking to Betty Currie about Monica, who had just called her and said that she, Monica, needed to talk to you before she signed something?

A: I'm not sure that I do remember that. But, go ahead.

A: This is in early January. And then Betty Currie relayed this to you that Monica called, it's very important, she needs to talk to you before she signs something. And then you do, indeed, talk to Monica that day on the telephone.

A: I did talk to her that day?

Q: Yes

MR. KENDALL: Mr. President, excuse me. That's a question. If you have a memory of that, you can answer.

THE WITNESS: I'm trying to remember when the last time I talked to her was. I'm aware, sir, that she signed this affidavit about this time, sometime in the first week in January. I may have talked to her before she did it. I don't know. I talked to her a number of times between the time Betty's brother died and Christmas. Then I saw her on december 28. I may have talked to her, but I don't remember the specific conversation.

BY MR. BITTMAN:

Q: And you would have talked about the -- she had just given you a gift actually in early January, a book on the Presidents of the United States. And you discussed this with her and she said that you said you liked it a lot.

A: I did like it a lot. I told you that. My impression, my belief was that she gave me that book for Christmas. Maybe that's not right. I think she had that book delivered to me for Christmas. And then, as I remember, I went to Bosnia and for some reason she wasn't there around Christmas time. But, anyway, maybe I didn't get it until January. My recollection was that I had gotten it right before Christmas.

Q: Let me see if I can jog your memory further. Monica talked to you in that phone conversation that told you

Q: Monica talked to you in that phone conversation that told youthat she had just met with her attorney that Mr. Jordan arranged with her, and the attorney said that if she is deposed that they were going to ask her how she got her job at the Pentagon. And Monica then asked you, what do you think I should say, how did I answer that question, how did I get the job at the Pentagon. Did you talk to Monica about that, about possibilities --

A: I don't believe -- no. I don't remember her asking me that. But if she, if she had asked me that, I would have told her to tell the truth. I -- and I didn't, you know, I don't know exactly how s he got her job at the Pentagon. I know Evelyn Lieberman wanted to transfer her out of the job she had, and somebody must have arranged that. But I didn't arrange it.

Q: Now, that's actually not my question. My question is whether you remember talking to Monica about her being concerned that, I may have to answer some questions about how and why I was transferred to the Pentagon out of the White House, fearing that this would --

A: No, I don't remember that at all.

Q: -- lead to questions, or answers that would reveal your relationship?

A: Oh, no, sir. I don't remember that. Maybe somebody -- maybe she did. But I only remember -- well, I don't remember that. That's all I can tell you. I don't remember that.

Q: Are you saying, Mr. President, that you did not then say to Ms. Lewinsky that you could always say that people in Legislative Affairs got you the job, or helped you get it?

Lees verder

Transcript by The Federal Document Clearing House.

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