Dossier Clinton

Actueel

Transcriptie van Clintons verhoor voor de Grand Jury (17 aug. 1998). Ook als zip-bestand te downloaden.

Starr Report

Clintons reactie op het Starr Report

Clintons tweede reactie op het Starr Report

Monica Lewinsky

Linda Tripp

Paula Jones

A: I have no recollection of that whatever.

Q: Are you saying you didn't say it?

A: No, sir. I'm telling you, I want to say I don't recall -- I don't have any memory of this as I sit here today. And I can tell you this, I never asked her to lie. I never did. And I don't have any recollection of the specific thing you are saying to me. Now, if I could back up, there were several times when Monica Lewinsky talked to me on the telephone in 1996, in person in 1997, about her being concerned about what anybody would say about her transfer from the White House to the Pentagon. But I remember no conversation in which she was concerned about it for the reasons you just mentioned. And all my memory is, she was worried about it because she thought it would keep her from getting a good job down the road, and she talked to me about it constantly in 1997. She thought, well, I'll never have my record clear unless I work somewhere in the White House complex where I can get a good recommendation. But in the context that you mention it, I do not recall a conversation.

Q: Did you ever tell Ms. Lewinsky, or promise to her that you would do your best to get her back into the White House after the 1996 Presidential elections?

A: What I told Ms. Lewinsky was that I would, I would do what I could to see, if she had a good record at the Pentagon, and she assured me she was doing a good job and working hard, that I would do my best to see that the fact that she had been sent away from the Legislative Affairs section did not keep her from getting a job in the White House, and that is, in fact, what I tried to do. I had a conversation with Ms. Scott about it, and I tried to do that. But I did not tell her I would order someone to hire her, and I never did, and I wouldn't do that. It wouldn't be right.

Q: When you received the book, this gift from Monica, the Presidents of the United States, this book that you liked and you talked with Monica about, did it come with a note? Do you remember the note that it came with, Mr. President?

A: No, sir, I don't.

Q: Do you remember that in the note she wrote that, she expressed how much she missed you and how much she cared for you, and you and she later talked about this in this telephone conversation, and you said -- and she apologized for putting such emotional, romantic things in this note, and you said, yeah, you shouldn't have written some of those things, you shouldn't put those things down on paper? Did you ever say anything like that to Ms. Lewinsky?

A: Oh, I believe I did say something like that to Ms. Lewinsky. I don't remember doing something as late as you suggest. I'm not saying I didn't. I have no recollection of that. Keep in mind now, it had been quite a long time since I had had any improper contact with her. And she was, in a funny way, almost more attached to me than she had been before. In '96, she had a long relationship, she said, with a man whom she liked a lot. And I didn't know what else was going on in her private life in '97. But she talked to me occasionally about people she was going out with. But normally her language at this point was, if affectionate, was, was not improperly affectionate, I would say. So -- but, it could have happened. I wouldn't say it didn't. I just don't remember it at this late date.

Q: Let me refer back to one of the subjects we talked about at one of the earlier breaks, right before one of the earlier breaks, and that is your meeting with Mrs. Currie on January 18th. This is the Sunday after your deposition in the Paula Jones case. You said that you spoke to her in an attempt to refresh your own recollection about the events involving Monica Lewinsky, is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: How did you making the statement, I was never alone with her, right, refresh your recollection?

A: Well, first of all, let's remember the context here. I did not at that time know of your involvement in this case. I just knew that obviously someone had given them a lot of information, some of which struck me as accurate, some of which struck me as dead wrong. But it led them to write, ask me a whole serious of questions about Monica Lewinsky. Then on Sunday morning, this Drudge report came out, which used Betty's name, and I thought that we were going to be deluged by press comments. And I was trying to refresh my memory about what the facts were. So, when I said, we were never alone, right, I think I also asked her a number of other questions, because there were several times, as I'm sure she would acknowledge, when I either asked her to be around. I remember once in particular when I was talking with Ms. Lewinsky when I asked Betty to be in the, actually, in the next room in the dining room, and, as I testified earlier, once in her own office. But I meant that she was always in the Oval Office complex, in that complex, while Monica was there. And I believe that this was part of a series of questions I asked her to try to quickly refresh my memory. So, I wasn't trying to get her to say something that wasn't so. And, in fact, I think she would recall that I told her to just relax, go in the grand jury and tell the truth when she had been called as a witness.

Q: So, when you said to Mrs. Currie that, I was never alone with her, right, you just meant that you and Ms. Lewinsky would be somewhere perhaps in the Oval Office or many times in your back study, is that correct?

A: That's right. We were in the back study.

Q: And then --

A: Keep in mind, sir, I just want to make it -- it was talking about 1997. I was never, ever trying to get Betty Currie to claim that on the occasions when Monica Lewinsky was there when she wasn't anywhere around, that she was. I would never have done that to her, and I don't think she thought about that. I don't think she thought I was referring to that.

Q: Did you put a date restriction? Did you make it clear to Mrs. Currie that you were only asking her whether you were never alone with her after 1997?

A: Well, I don't recall whether I did or not, but I assumed -- if I didn't, I assumed she knew what I was talking about, because it was the point at which Ms. Lewinsky was out of the White House and had to have someone WAVE her in, in order to get in the White House.

A: And I do not believe to this day that I was -- in 1997, that she was ever there and that I ever saw her unless Betty Currie was there. I don't believe she was.

Q: Do you agree with me that the statement, "I was never alone with her", is incorrect? You were alone with Monica Lewinsky, weren't you?

A: Well, again, it depends on how you define alone. Yes, we were alone from time to time, even during 1997, even when there was absolutely no improper contact occurring. Yes, that is accurate. But, there were also a lot of times when, even though no one could see us, the doors were open to the halls, on both ends of the halls, people could hear. The Navy stewards could come in and out at will, if they were around. Other things could be happening. So, there were a lot of times when we were alone, but I never really thought we were. And sometimes when we, when -- but, as far as I know, what I was trying to determine, if I might, is that Betty was always around, and I believe she was always around where I could basically call her or get her if I needed her.

Q: When you said to Mrs. Currie, you could see and hear everything, that wasn't true either, was it, as far as you knew? You've already --

A: My memory of that --

Q: -- testified that Betty was not there.

A: My memory of that was that, that she had the ability to hear what was going on if she came in the Oval Office from her office. And a lot of times, you know, when I was in the Oval Office, she just had the door open to her office. Then there was -- the door was never completely closed to the hall. So, I think there was -- I'm not entirely sure what I meant by that, but I could have meant that she generally would be able to hear conversations, even if she couldn't see them. And I think that's what I meant. Now, I could have been referring not generally to every time she was there, but one, one particular time I remember when Ms. Lewinsky was there when I asked Betty -- and I'm sorry to say for reasons I don't entirely remember -- to actually stay in the dining room while I talked with Monica. I do remember one such instance.

Q: Well, you've already testified that this -- you did almost everything you could to keep this relationship secret. So, would it be fair to say -- even from Ms. Currie. She didn't know about the nature, that is, your intimate, physically intimate relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, did she?

A: As far as I know, she is unaware of what happened on the, on the occasions when I saw her in 1996 when something improper happened. And she was unaware of the one time that I recall in 1997 when something happened. I think she was quite well aware that I was determined to impose the appropriate limits on the relationship when I was trying to do it. And the -- you know, anybody would hope that this wouldn't become public. Although I frankly, from 1996 on, always felt that if I severed inappropriate contact with Ms. Lewinsky, sooner or later it would get public. And I never thought it would be part of the Jones case. I never even thought about that. I never thought -- I certainly never thought it would be part of your responsibilities.

Q: My question was --

A: But I did believe that she would talk about it.

Q: My question was more simple than that. Mrs. Currie, did not know of the physically intimate nature of your relationship, did she?

A: I don't believe she did, no.

Q: Okay. So, you would have done -- you tried to keep that nature of the relationship from Mrs. Currie?

A: Absolutely. I --

Q: So, you would not have engaged in those physically intimate acts if you knew that Mrs. Currie could see or her that, is that correct?

A: That's correct. But, keep in mind, sir, I was talking about 1997. That occurred, to the -- and I believe that occurred only once in February of 1997. I stopped it. I never should have started it, and I certainly shouldn't have started it back after I resolved not to in 1996. And I was referring to 1997. And I -- what -- as I say, I do not know -- her memory and mine may be somewhat different. I do not know whether I was asking her about a particular time when Monica was upset and I asked her to stand, stay back in the dining area. Or whether I was, had reference to the fact that if she kept the door open to the Oval Office, because it was always the door to the hallway as always somewhat open, that she would always be able to hear something if anything went on that was, you know, too loud, or whatever. I do not know what I meant. I'm just trying to reconcile the two statements as best I can, without being sure.

Q: There was at least one event where Mrs. Currie was definitely not even in the Oval Office area, isn't that right? And I think you began to testify about that before. That was at the radio address.

A: I'm not sure of that. But in that case, there was, there was certainly someone else there. I don't know --

Q: Well, why would you be testing Mrs. Currie's memory about whether someone else was there?

A: Well, I can say this. If I'm in the Oval Office -- my belief is that there was someone else there, somewhere in the Oval Office complex. I've looked at our -- I've looked at the film. This, this night has become legendary now, you know. I've looked at the, I've looked at the film we have. I've looked at my schedules. I've seen the people that were at the radio address. I do believe that I was alone with her from 15 to 20 minutes. I do believe that things happened then which were inappropriate. I don't remember whether Betty was there or not, but I can't imagine that, since all this happened more or less continuously in that time period, there must have been someone who was working around the radio address who stayed around somewhere. That would be my guess. I don't know. I'm sorry. I don't have records about who it would be. But, I doubt very seriously if we were all alone in that Oval Office complex then.

Q: Mr. President, if there is a semen stain belonging to you on a dress of Ms. Lewinsky's, how would you explain that?

A: Well, Mr. Bittman, I, I don't -- first of all, when you asked me for a blood test, I gave you one promptly. You came over here and got it. That's -- we met that night and talked. So, that's a question you already know the answer to. Not if, but you know whether. And the main thing I can tell you is that doesn't affect the opening statement I made. The opening statement I made is that I had inappropriate intimate contact. I take full responsibility for it. It wasn't her fault, it was mine. I do not believe that I violated the definition of sexual relations I was given by directly touching those parts of her body with the intent to arouse or gratify. And that's all I have to say. I think, for the rest, you know, you know what the evidence is and it doesn't affect that statement.

Q: Is it possible or impossible that your semen is on a dress belonging to Ms. Lewinsky?

A: I have nothing to add to my statement about it, sir. You, know whether -- you know what the facts are. There's no point in a hypothetical.

Q: Don't you know what the facts are also, Mr. President?

A: I have nothing to add to my statement, sir.

Q: Getting back to the conversation you had with Mrs. Currie on January 18th, you told her -- if she testified that you told her, Monica came on to me and I never touched her, you did, in fact, of course, touch Ms. Lewinsky, isn't that right, in a physically intimate way?

A: Now, I've testified about that. And that's one of those questions that I believe is answered by the statement that I made.

Q: What was the purpose in making these statements to Mrs. Currie, if they weren't for the purpose to try to suggest to her what she should say if ever asked?

A: Now, Mr. Bittman, I told you, the only thing I remember is when all this stuff blew up, I was trying to figure out what the facts were. I was trying to remember. I was trying to remember every time I had seen Ms. Lewinsky. Once this things was in Drudge, and there was this argument about whether it was or was not going to be in Newsweek, that was a clear signal to me, because Newsweek, frankly, was -- had become almost a sponsoring media outlook for the Paula Jones case, and had a journalist who had been trying, so far fruitlessly, to find me in some sort of wrongdoing. And so I knew this was all going to come out. I was trying -- I did not know at the time -- I will say again, I did not know that any of you were involved. I did not know that the Office of Independent Counsel was involved. And I was trying to get the facts and try to think of the best defense we could construct in the face of what I thought was going to be a media onslaught. Once you became involved, I told Betty Currie not to worry, that, that she been through a terrible time. She had lost her brother. She had lost her sister. Her mother was in the hospital. I said, Betty, just don't worry about me. Just relax, go in there and tell the truth. You'll be fine. Now, that's all there was in this context.

Q: Did the conversations that you had with Mrs. Currie, this conversation, did it refresh your recollection as to events involving Ms. Lewinsky?

A: Well, as I remember, I do believe, in fairness, that, you know, she may have felt some ambivalence about how to react, because there were some times when she seemed to say yes, when I'm not sure she meant yes. There was a time -- it seems like there was one or two things where she said, well, remember this, that or the other thing, which did reflect my recollection. So, I would say a little yes, and a little no.

Q: Why was it then that two or three days later, given that The Washington Post article came out on January 21st, why would you have had another conversation with Betty Currie asking or making the exact same statements to her?

A: I don't know that I did. I remember having this one time. I was, I was -- I don't know that I did.

Q: If Mrs. Currie says you did, are you disputing that?

A: No sir, I'm not disputing --

MR. KENDALL: Excuse me. Is your representation that she testified that the conversation was -- when?

MR. BITTMAN: I'm not making a representation as to what Mrs. Currie said. I'm asking the President if Mrs. Currie testified two or three days later, that two or three days after the conversation with the President on January 18th, that he called her into the Oval Office and went over the exact same statements that the president made to her on the 18th.

BY MR. BITTMAN:

Q: is that accurate? Is that a truthful statement by Mrs. Currie, if she made it?

A: I do not remember how many times I talked to Betty Currie or when, I don't. I can't possibly remember that. I do remember, when I first heard about this story breaking, trying to ascertain what the facts were, trying to ascertain what Betty's perception was. I remember that I was highly agitated, understandably, I think. And then I remember when I knew she was going to have to testify to the grand jury, and I, I felt terrible because she had been through this loss of her sister, this horrible accident Christmas that killed her brother, and her mother was in the hospital. I was trying to do -- to make her understand that I didn't want her to, to be untruthful to the grand jury. And if her memory was different from mine, it was fine, just go in there and tell them what she thought.

BY MR. BENNETT:

Q: M. President, my name is Jackie Bennett. If I understand your current line of testimony, you are saying that your only interest in speaking with Mr. Currie in the days after your deposition was to refresh your own recollection?

A: Yes.

Q: It was not to impart instructions on how she was to recall things in the future?

A: No, and certainly not under oath. That -- every day, Mr. Bennett, in the White House and in every other political organization, when you are subject to a barrage of press questions of any kind, you always try to make the best case you can consistent with the facts; that is, while being truthful. But -- so, I was concerned for a day or two there about this as a press story only. I had no idea you were involved in it for a couple of days. I think Betty Currie's testimony will be that I gave her explicit instructions or encouragement to just go in the grand jury and tell the truth. That's what I told her to do and I thought she would.

Q: Mr. President, when did you learn about the Drudge Report reporting allegations of you having a sexual relationship with someone at the White House?

A: I believe it was the morning of the 18th, I think.

Q: What time of day, sir?

A: I have no idea.

Q: Early morning hours?

A: Yeah, I think somebody called me and told me about it. Maybe Bruce, maybe someone else. I'm not sure, but I learned early on the 18th of the Drudge Report.

Q: Very early morning hours, sir?

A: Now, my deposition was on the 17th, is that right?

Q: On Saturday, the 17th, sir.

A: Yeah, I think it was when I got up Sunday morning, I think. Maybe it was late Saturday night. I don't remember.

Q: Did you call Betty Currie, sir, after the Drudge Report hit the wire?

A: I did.

Q: Did you call her at home?

A: I did. Was that the night of the 17th?

Q: Night of the 17th, early morning hours of the 18th?

A: Okay, yes. That's because -- yes. I worked with Prime Minister Netanyahu that night until about midnight.

MR. KENDALL: Wait.

THE WITNESS: Isn't that right?

MR. KENDALL: Excuse me. I think the question is directed -- Mr. Bennett, if you could help out by putting the day of the week, I think that would be helpful.

BY MR. BENNETT:

Q: Saturday night, Sunday morning?

A: Yes. I called Betty Currie as soon -- I think about as soon as I could, after I finished with Prime Minister Netanyahu, and in the aftermath of that meeting planning where we were going next in the Middle East peace process.

MR. KENDALL: Can we take a two-minute break, please?

MR. BITTMAN: May I ask one other question first, Mr. Kendall?

MR. KENDALL: Certainly. I think the witness is confused on dates. That's all.

MR. BITTMAN: Okay.

THE WITNESS: That's what -- I didn't think it was the night of the 17th.

MR. KENDALL: Mr. President, I think we'll do it in a break.

THE WITNESS: Can we have a break and I could get straightened out?

MR. BITTMAN: Sure. May I ask one other quick -- this is a question I forgot to ask from the grand jurors.

THE WITNESS: I don't want to get mixed up on these dates now. Go ahead.

BY MR. BITTMAN:

Q: This is -- they wanted to know whether, they want us to clarify that the President's knowledge, your knowledge, Mr. President, as to the approach to our office this morning; that is, we were told that you would give a general statement about the nature of your relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, which you have done. Yet that you would you did not want to go into any of the details about the relationship. And that if we pressed on going into the details, that you would object to going into the details. And the grand jurors, before they wanted, they wanted to vote on some other matters, they wanted to know whether you were aware of that? That we were told that?

MR. KENDALL: Well, Mr. Bittman, who told you that? This is, this is, this is not a fair question, when you say you were told. Who told you?

MR. BITTMAN: Who told me what, the question?

MR. KENDALL: You said, you said the grand jury was told.

MR. BITTMAN: We have kept the grand jury informed, as we normally would, of the proceedings here.

MR. KENDALL: Right. And I'm sorry. Who, who are you representing told you or the grand jurors anything? Is that, is that our conversation?

Mr. BITTMAN: Yes.

Mr. STARR: Yes, our conversation.

MR. BITTMAN: Yes. That was in substance related to the grand jurors.

THE WITNESS: And what's your question to me, Mr. Bittman?

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