NRC Handelsblad - Dossier Clinton -Transcriptie van Clintons verhoor (8)

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Transcriptie van Clintons verhoor voor de Grand Jury (17 aug. 1998). Ook als zip-bestand te downloaden.

Starr Report

Clintons reactie op het Starr Report

Clintons tweede reactie op het Starr Report

President Clinton testifies before the Kenneth Starr grand jury to discuss his relationship with Monica Lewinsky

QUESTION: Specifically, Mr. President, do you remember a card she sent you after she saw the movie "Titanic" in which she said that she reminisced or dreamed about that the romantic feelings that occurred in the movie and how that reminded her of you two. Do you remember that?

CLINTON: No, sir. But she could have said it. Just because I don't remember doesn't mean it wasn't there.

QUESTION: So you're not denying that? That...

CLINTON: Oh no. I wouldn't deny that. I just don't remember it. You asked me if I remember it. I don't. She might have done it.

QUESTION: Do you ever remember telling her, Mr. President, that she should not write some of the things that she does in these cards and letters that she sends to you because it reveals -- it disclosed this relationship that you've had and that she shouldn't do it?

CLINTON: I remember telling her she should be careful what she wrote, because a lot of it was clearly inappropriate and would be embarrassing if somebody else read it. I don't remember when I said that. I don't remember whether it was in 1996 or when it was. I don't remember.

QUESTION: Embarrassing in that it was revealing of the intimate relationship that you and she had. Is that right?

CLINTON: I do not know when I said this. So I don't know whether we did have any sort of inappropriate relationship at the time I said that to her. I don't remember. But it's obvious that if she wrote things that she should not have written down and someone else read it, that it would be embarrassing.

QUESTION: She certainly sent you something like that after the relationship began, didn't she? And so therefore there was, at the time she said it, something inappropriate going on?

CLINTON: Well, my recollection is that she -- that maybe because of changed circumstances in her own life, in 1997, after there was no more inappropriate contact, that she sent me more things in the mail and that there was sort of a disconnect sometimes between what she was saying and the plain facts of our relationship. And I don't what caused that, but it may have been dissatisfaction with the rest of her life. I don't know. You know, she had from the time I first met her talked to me about the rest of her personal life. And it may be that there is some reason for that. It may be that when I did the right thing and made it stick that, in a way she felt a need to cling more closely or try to get closer to me, even though she knew nothing improper was happening or was going to happen. I don't know the answer to that.

QUESTION: After you gave her the gifts on december 28th, did you speak with your secretary, Ms. Currie, and ask her to pick up a box of gifts that were some compilation of gifts that Ms. Lewinsky would have (OFF-MIKE)?

CLINTON: No, sir. I didn't do that. I did not do that.

QUESTION: When you testified in the Paula Jones case -- this was only 2 1/2 weeks after you had given her these six gifts -- you were

asked at page 75 of the deposition, lines 2 through 5: "Well, have you ever given any gifts to Monica Lewinsky?"

And you answered: "I don't recall." And you are correct when you point out that you actually asked them to (OFF-MIKE) -- do (ph) you know that they were?

CLINTON: Yes, I think what I meant there is I don't recall what they were, not that I don't recall whether I had given them. And then, if you see, they did give me the specifics, and I gave them quite a good explanation here. I remember very clearly what the facts were about the black dog. And I said that I could have given her a hat pin and a Walt Whitman book, but I did not remember giving her a gold broach, which was true. I didn't remember it. I may have given it to her, but I didn't remember giving her one. They didn't ask me about the Christmas gifts.

CLINTON: And I don't know why I didn't think to say anything about them, but I have to tell you again, I even invited them to have a list. It was obvious to me by this point in the definition -- in this deposition that they had -- these people had access to a lot of information from somewhere. And I presume it came from Linda Tripp. And I had no interest in not answering the questions about these gifts. I do not believe that gifts -- gifts are incriminating, nor do I think they are wrong. I think it was a good thing to do. I'm not -- I'm still not sorry I gave Monica Lewinsky gifts.

QUESTION: Why did you assume that that information came from Linda Tripp?

CLINTON: I didn't then.

QUESTION: I thought you just testified that you...

CLINTON: No, no, no. I said I now assume that because of all the subsequent events. I didn't know -- I just knew that -- that some...

QUESTION: Let me ask you about...

CLINTON: ... somebody had access to some information and they may have known more about this than I did.

QUESTION: Let me ask you about the meeting you had with Betty Currie at the White House on Sunday, January 18, this year, the day after your deposition. First of all, you didn't -- Mrs. Currie, your secretary of six or seven years, you never allowed her, did you, to watch whatever -- whatever intimate activity you did with Ms. Lewinsky, did you?

CLINTON: No, sir, not to my knowledge.

QUESTION: And as far as you know, she couldn't hear anything either? Is that right?

CLINTON: There were a couple of times when Monica was there when I asked Betty to be places where she could hear because Monica was upset, and I -- this was after there was -- all the inappropriate contact had been terminated. But...

QUESTION: I'm talking about the times that you actually had the intimate contact.

CLINTON: She was -- I believe that -- well, first of all, on that one occasion in 1997, I do not know whether Betty was in the White House after the radio address in the Oval Office complex. I believe she probably was, but I'm not sure. But I'm certain that someone was there. I -- always, someone was there. In 1996, I think most of the times that Ms. Lewinsky was there, there may not have been anybody around except maybe coming in and out, but not permanently so. I did -- that's correct, I never -- I didn't try to involve Betty in that in any way.

QUESTION: Well, not only did you not try to involve her, you were specifically trying to exclude her and everyone else. Isn't that right?

CLINTON: Well, yes. I -- I've never -- I mean, it's almost humorous, sir. I'd have to be an exhibitionist not to have tried to exclude everyone else.

QUESTION: So if Ms. Currie testified that you approached her on the 18th when you spoke with her and you said, "You were always there when she was there." She wasn't, was she? That is, Mrs. Currie.

CLINTON: She was always there in the White House. And I was concerned -- let me back up a sec ...

QUESTION: What about the radio address, Mr. President?

CLINTON: Let me back up a second, Mr. Bittman. I knew about the radio address. I was sick after it was over. And I -- I was pleased that, at that time, it had been nearly a year since any inappropriate contact had occurred with Ms. Lewinsky. I promised myself it wasn't going to happen again. The facts are complicated about what did happen, and how it happened. But nonetheless, I'm responsible for it. On that night, she didn't. I was more concerned about the times after that when Ms. Lewinsky was upset, and I wanted to establish at least that I had not -- because these questions were -- some of them were off the wall. Some of them were way out of line I thought. And when I wanted to establish was that Betty was there at all other times in the -- in the complex, and I wanted to know what Betty's memory was about what she heard, what she could hear. And what I did not know but I did not know that. And I was trying to figure it out. And I was trying to figure it out in a hurry because I knew something was up -- after that definition (ph).

QUESTION: So you wanted to check her memory for what she remembered, and that is...

CLINTON: That's correct.

QUESTION: ... whether she remember nothing, or whether she remembered an inappropriate, intimate relationship?

CLINTON: Oh, no, no, no, no. No, I didn't ask her about it that way. I asked her about what the -- what I was trying to determine was whether my recollection was right because she was always in the office complex when Monica was there, and whether she thought she could hear any conversations we had or did she hear any. And then I asked her specifically about a couple of times when once when I asked her to remain in the dining room -- Betty -- while I met with Monica in my study, and once when I took Monica into the small office Nancy Hernreich occupies right next to Betty's and talked to her there for a few minutes. That's my recollection of that. I was trying to I knew, Mr. Bittman, to a reasonable certainty that I was going to asked more questions about this. I didn't really expect you to be in the Jones case at the time. I thought what would happen is that it would break in the press and I was trying to get the facts down. I was trying to understand what the facts were.

QUESTION: Ms. Currie testified that these were not really questions to her, that they were more like statements. Is that not the truth?

CLINTON: Well, I can't testify as to what her perception was. I can tell you this. I was trying to get information in a hurry. I was downloading what I remembered. I think Ms. Currie would also testify that I explicitly told her, once I realized that you were involved in the Jones case, you were with the office of independent counsel and that she might have to be called as witness, that she should go in there and tell the truth, tell what she knew and be perfectly truthful. So I was not trying to get Betty Currie to say something that was untruthful. I was trying to get as much information as quickly as I could.

QUESTION: What information were you trying to get from her when you said, "I was never alone with her, right?"

CLINTON: I don't remember exactly what I did say with her. That's what you say I said.

QUESTION: If Ms. Currie testified to that -- that she says you told her, "I was never alone with her, right?"

CLINTON: Well, I was never alone with her...

QUESTION: Did you not say that, Mr. President?

CLINTON: Mr. Bittman, just a minute. "I was never alone with her, right?" might be a question. And what I might have meant by that is, "In the Oval Office complex."

QUESTION: But you knew the answer...

CLINTON: Could -- we've been going for more than an hour, would you mind if we take a break? I need to go to the restroom.

QUESTION: 2:38. (BREAK)

QUESTION: Mr. President, I want to go into a new subject area, briefly go over something you were talking about with Mr. Bittman. The statement of your attorney, Mr. Bennett, at the Paula Jones deposition -- counsel is fully aware -- it's page 54, line 5. Counsel is fully aware that Ms. Lewinsky is filing, has an affidavit, which they were in possession of, saying that there was absolutely no sex of any kind in any manner, shape or form with President Clinton. That statement was made by your attorney in front of Judge Susan Webber Wright.

CLINTON: That's correct.

QUESTION: Your -- that statement is a completely false statement. Whether or not Mr. Bennett knew of your relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, the statement that there was no sex of any kind in any manner, shape or form with President Clinton was an utterly false statement. Is that correct?

CLINTON: It depends upon what the meaning of the word is means. If is means is, and never has been, that's one thing. If it means, there is none, that was a completely true statement. But as I have testified -- I'd like to testify again -- this is -- it somewhat unusual for a client to be asked about his lawyer's statements instead of the other way around. I was not paying a great deal of attention to this exchange. I was focusing on my own testimony. And that if you go back and look at the sequence of events, you will see that the Jones' lawyers decided that this was going to be the Lewinsky deposition, not the Jones deposition. And given the facts of their case, I can understand why they made that decision. But that is not how I prepared for it. That is not how I was thinking about it. And I am not sure, Mr. Wisenberg, as I sit here today that I sat there and followed all these interchanges between the lawyers. I'm quite sure that I didn't follow all the interchanges between the lawyers all that carefully. And I don't really believe, therefore, that I can say Mr. Bennett's testimony or statement is testimony that is impugnable to me. I didn't -- I don't know that I was really paying that much attention to him.

QUESTION: You've told us you were very well-prepared for the deposition.

CLINTON: No, I said I was very well prepared to talk about Paula Jones and to talk about Kathleen Willey, because she had made a related charge. She was the only person that I think I was asked about who had anything to do with the -- anything that would remotely approximate sexual harassment. The rest of this it looked to me like it was more of a way to harass me.

QUESTION: You're the president of the United States, and your attorney counseled the United States District Court judge that there's no sex of any kind or any way, shape or form whatsoever. And you feel no obligation to do anything about that at that deposition, Mr. President?

CLINTON: I had told you, Mr. Wisenberg -- I will tell you for a third time -- I am not even sure that when Mr. Bennett made that statement that I was concentrating on the exact words he used. Now, someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky -- that is ask me a question in the present tense -- I would have said no. And it would have been completely true.

QUESTION: Was Mr. Bennett aware of this tense-based distinction you were making?

CLINTON: I don't -- I don't...

KENDALL: I'm going to object to any questions about communications with private counsel.

QUESTION: Well, the witness has already testified, I think, that Mr. Bennett didn't know about the inappropriate relationship with Ms. Lewinsky. I guess...

CLINTON: Well, you'll have to ask him. You know, he was not a sworn witness, and I was not paying that close attention to what he was saying. I've told you that repeatedly. I was -- I don't -- I never even focused on that until I read it in this transcript in preparation for this testimony.

CLINTON: When I was in there, I didn't think about my lawyers. I was only thinking about myself and my testimony and trying to answer the questions.

QUESTION: I just want to make sure I understand you correctly. Do you mean today that because you were not engaging in sexual activity with Ms. Lewinsky during the deposition that the statement Mr. Bennett made (OFF-MIKE)?

CLINTON: No, sir. I mean that at the time of the deposition, we had been -- that was well-beyond any point of improper contact between me and Ms. Lewinsky. So that anyone generally speaking in the present tense saying that was not an improper relationship would be telling the truth if that person said there was not, in the present tense --the present tense encompassing many months. That's what I meant by that -- not that I was -- I wasn't trying to give you a cute answer to that. I was obviously not involved in anything improper during the deposition. I was trying to tell you that, generally speaking in the present tense, if someone said that, that would be true. But I don't know what Mr. Bennett had in his mind. I don't know -- I didn't pay attention to this colloquy that went on. I was waiting for my instructions as a witness to go forward. I was worried about my own testimony.

QUESTION: I want to go back to some questions about Mr. Jordan and touch a little bit on the december 19th meeting and some others. Mr. Jordan is a longtime friend of yours, is that correct, Mr. President?

CLINTON: Yes, sir. We've been friends probably 20 years, maybe more.

QUESTION: You said you consider him to be a truthful person, correct?

CLINTON: I do.

QUESTION: If Mr. Jordan has told us that he visited you in the residence on the night of the 19th after a White House holiday dinner to discuss Monica Lewinsky and her subpoena, would you have any reason to doubt it?

CLINTON: No. I've never known him to say anything that wasn't true. And his memory of these events, I think, would be better than mine, because I had a lot of other things going on.

QUESTION: We have WAVE records that will show that. But in the interest of time, I'm not going to -- since you don't dispute that, I'm not going to show them right now. And in fact, that was the very day Monica Lewinsky was subpoenaed, wasn't it? That that's the night that he came to see you?

CLINTON: I don't have independent memory of that, but you would probably know that. I mean, I'm sure there's a record of when she got her subpoena.

QUESTION: If Mr. Jordan has told us that he spoke with you over the phone within about an hour of Monica receiving her subpoena and later visited you that very day -- night at the White House to discuss it, again, you'd have no reason to doubt him, is that correct?

CLINTON: Well, I believe I've already testified about that here today. That I had a lots of conversations with Vernon. I am sure that I had lots of conversations with him that included comments about this. And if he has a specific memory of when I had some conversation on a certain day, I would be inclined to trust his memory over mine, because under the present circumstances, my head's probably more cluttered than his and my schedule's probably busier. He's probably got better records.

QUESTION: And when Mr. Jordan met with you at the residence that night, sir, he asked you if you had been involved in a sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky, didn't he?

CLINTON: I do not remember exactly what the nature of the conversation was. I do remember that I told him -- excuse me -- that I told him that there was no sexual relationship between me and Monica Lewinsky, which was true. And that -- then all I remember for the most (ph) is that he said he had referred her to a lawyer. And I believe it was Mr. Carter, and I don't believe I've ever met Mr. Carter. I don't think I know him.

QUESTION: Mr. President, if Mr. Jordan has told us that he had a very disturbing conversation with Ms. Lewinsky that day, then went over to visit you at the White House, and that before he asked you the question about sexual relationship, related that disturbing conversation to you, the conversation being that Ms. Lewinsky had a fixation on you and thought that perhaps the first lady would leave you at the end of the -- that you would leave the first lady at the end of your term and come be with Ms. Lewinsky, you'd have no reason to doubt him that it was on that night that that conversation happened?

CLINTON: All I can tell you, sir, is I certainly don't remember him saying that. Now, he could have said that, because, as you know, a great many things happened in the ensuing two or three days. And I could have just forgotten it. But I don't remember him ever saying that.

QUESTION: At any time?

CLINTON: No. I don't remember him saying that. What I remember was that he said that Monica came to see him, that she was upset that she was going to have to testify, that he had referred her to a lawyer.

QUESTION: In fact, she was very distraught about the subpoena, according to Mr. Jordan, wasn't she?

CLINTON: Well, he said she was upset about it. I remember that -- I don't remember any -- at any time when he said this other thing you just quoted me. I'm sorry. I just don't remember that.

QUESTION: That is something that one would be likely to remember, don't you think, Mr. President?

CLINTON: I think I would, and I'd be happy to share it with you if I did. I only had one encounter with Ms. Lewinsky, I seem to remember, which was somewhat maybe reminiscent of that, but not that, if you will, obsessive, if that's the way you want to use that word.

QUESTION: Do you recall him at all telling you that he was concerned about her fascination with you, even if you don't remember the specific conversation about you leaving the first lady?

CLINTON: When I was in there, I didn't think about my lawyers. I was only thinking about myself and my testimony and trying to answer the questions.

CLINTON: No, sir. I mean that at the time of the deposition, we had been -- that was well-beyond any point of improper contact between me and Ms. Lewinsky. So that anyone generally speaking in the present tense saying that was not an improper relationship would be telling the truth if that person said there was not, in the present tense -- the present tense encompassing many months. That's what I meant by that -- not that I was -- I wasn't trying to give you a cute answer to that. I was obviously not involved in anything improper during the deposition. I was trying to tell you that, generally speaking in the present tense, if someone said that, that would be true. But I don't know what Mr. Bennett had in his mind. I don't know -- I didn't pay attention to this colloquy that went on. I was waiting for my instructions as a witness to go forward. I was worried about my own testimony.

CLINTON: Yes, sir. We've been friends probably 20 years, maybe more.

QUESTION: You said you consider him to be a truthful person, correct?

CLINTON: I do.

CLINTON: No. I've never known him to say anything that wasn't true. And his memory of these events, I think, would be better than mine, because I had a lot of other things going on.

CLINTON: I don't have independent memory of that, but you would probably know that. I mean, I'm sure there's a record of when she got her subpoena.

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Transcript by The Federal Document Clearing House.

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21 september 1998

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