Dossier Clinton

Actueel

Transcriptie van Clintons verhoor voor de Grand Jury (17 aug. 1998). Ook als zip-bestand te downloaden.

Starr Report

Clintons reactie op het Starr Report

Clintons tweede reactie op het Starr Report

Monica Lewinsky

Linda Tripp

Paula Jones

President Clinton testifies before the Kenneth Starr grand jury to discuss his relationship with Monica Lewinsky

CLINTON: I do.

QUESTION: Do you remember in the deposition that Mr. Bennett asked you about that? This is at the end of the -- of the -- toward the end of the deposition. And you indicated -- he asked you whether the statement that Ms. Lewinsky made in her affidavit was true. And you indicated that it was absolutely correct.

CLINTON: I did. And at the time that she made the statement --and indeed, to the present day, because as far as I know she was never deposed since the judge ruled she would not be permitted to testify in a case the judge ruled had no merit -- that is this case we're talking about -- I believe at the time that she filled out this affidavit, if she believed that the definition of sexual relationship was two people having intercourse, then this is accurate. And I believe that is the definition that most ordinary Americans would give it. If you said Jane and Harry had a sexual relationship -- and they're not talking about people being drawn into a lawsuit and being given a definition and then a great effort to trick them in some way -- but you're just talking about people in an ordinary conversation, I bet the grand jurors, if they were talking about two people they know and said they had a sexual relationship, they meant they were sleeping together. They meant they were having intercourse together. So I'm not at all sure that this affidavit is not true and was not true in Ms. Lewinsky's mind at the time she swore (ph) it out.

QUESTION: Did you talk with Ms. Lewinsky about what she meant to write in her affidavit?

CLINTON: I didn't talk to her about her definition. I did not know what was in this affidavit before it was filled out, specifically. I did not know what words was used -- were used specifically before it was filled out or what meaning she gave to them. But I'm just telling you that it's certainly true what she says here, that we didn't have -- there was no employment or benefit in exchange. There was nothing having anything to do with sexual harassment. And if she defined sexual relationship in the way I think most Americans do, meaning intercourse, then she told the truth.

CLINTON: And that depends on what was in her mind. I don't know what is her mind. You'll have to ask her that.

QUESTION: But you indicated before that you were aware of what she intended by the term sexual relationship.

CLINTON: No, sir. I said I thought that -- that this could be a truthful affidavit. And when I read it, since that's the way I would define it -- since keep in mind she was not -- she was not bound by this sexual relations definition, which is highly unusual. I think anybody would admit that. When she used two different terms, sexual relationship, if she meant by that what most people mean by it, then that is not an untruthful statement.

QUESTION: So your definition of sexual relationship is intercourse only, is that correct?

CLINTON: No, not necessarily intercourse only, but it would include intercourse. I believe -- I believe that the common understanding of the term, if you say two people are having a sexual relationship, most people believe that includes intercourse. So if that's what Ms. Lewinsky thought, then this is a truthful affidavit. I don't know what was in her mind, but if that's what she thought, the affidavit is true.

QUESTION: What else would sexual relationship include besides intercourse?

CLINTON: Well, that -- I think -- let me answer what I said before. I think most people when they use that term include sexual relationships and what other -- whatever other sexual contact is involved in a particular relationship. But they think it includes intercourse as well. And I would have thought so before I got into this case and heard all I've heard and seen all I've seen -- I would have thought that's what nearly everybody thought it meant.

QUESTION: Well, I ask, Mr. President, because your (ph) using the very document -- grand jury exhibit 4, WJC 4 --- represented to Judge Wright that his (ph) understanding of the meaning of that affidavit, which you've indicated you thought Ms. Lewinsky thought was -- was just intercourse. He says to Judge Wright that it meant absolutely no sex of any kind in any manner, shape or form.

CLINTON: Well, let me say this: I didn't have any discussion, obviously, at this moment with Mr. Bennett. I'm not even sure I paid much attention to what he was saying. I was think -- I was ready to get on with my testimony here, and they were having these constant discussions all through the deposition. But that statement in the presence tense, at least, is not inaccurate, if that's what Mr. Bennett meant. But as -- at the time that he said that and for some time before, that would be a completely accurate statement. Now I don't believe that he was -- I don't know what he meant. You'd have to talk to him, because I just wasn't involved in this and I didn't pay much attention to what being said. I was just waiting for them to get back to me. So I can't comment on or be held responsible for whatever he said about that, I don't think.

QUESTION: Well, if you -- do you agree with me that he misled Judge Wright in some way, that you would have corrected the record and said, excuse me, Mr. Bennett, I think the judge is getting a misimpression by what you're saying?

CLINTON: Mr. Bennett was representing me. I wasn't representing him. And I wasn't even paying much attention to this conversation, which is why when you started asking me about this, I asked to see the deposition. I was focusing on my answers to the questions, and I told you what I believe about this deposition, which I believe to be true. And it's obvious -- and I think by your questions, you have betrayed that the Jones lawyers strategy in this case had nothing to do with uncovering or proving sexual harassment. By the time this discovery started, they knew they had a base case on the law. And they knew what our evidence was -- they knew they had a lousy case on the facts. And so their strategy, since they were being funded by my political opponents, was to have this dragnet of discovery.

CLINTON: They wanted to cover everybody. And they convinced the judge, because she gave them strict orders not to leave, that they should be treated like other plaintiffs in other civil cases. And how could they ever know whether there had been any sexual harassment unless they first knew whether there had been sex? And so with that broad mandate, limited by time and employment in the federal/state government, they proceeded to cross the country and try to turn up whatever they could -- not because they thought it would help their case. By the time they did this discovery, they knew what the deal was in that case. And they knew what was going to happen. Judge Wright subsequently threw it out. What they...

QUESTION: But...

CLINTON: Now let me finish, Mr. Bennett. You've got -- I mean, you brought this up. Excuse me, Mr. Bittman. What they wanted to do and what they did do and what they have done by the time I showed up here was to find any negative information they could on me, whether it was true or not. Get it in a deposition, and then leak it, even though it was illegal to do so. It happened repeatedly. The judge gave them orders. One of the reasons she was sitting in that deposition was because she was trying to make sure that it didn't get out of hand. But that was their strategy, and they did a good job of it. And they got away with it. I've been subject to quite a lot of illegal leaking. And they had a very determined, deliberate strategy, because their real goal was to hurt me. When they knew they couldn't win the lawsuit, they thought, well. maybe we can pummel him. Maybe they thought I'd settle. Maybe they just thought they would get some political advantage out of it. But that's what was going on here. Now, I'm trying to be honest with you and it hurts me. And I'm trying to tell you the truth about what happened between Ms. Lewinsky and me. But that does not change the fact that the real reason they were zeroing in on anybody was to try to get any person in there, no matter how uninvolved with Paula Jones, no matter how uninvolved with sexual harassment, so they could hurt me politically. That's what was going on, because by then, by this time, this thing had been going on a long time. They knew what our evidence was; they knew what the law was in the circuit in which we (ph) were bringing this case. And so they just thought that they would take a wrecking ball to me and see if they could do some damage.

QUESTION: Judge Wright had ruled that the attorneys in the Jones case were permitted to ask you certain questions.

CLINTON: She certainly did, and they asked them, and I did my best to answer them. I'm just trying to tell you what my state of mind was.

QUESTION: Was it your responsibility to answer those questions truthfully, Mr. President?

CLINTON: It was. But it was not my responsibility, in the face of their repeated illegal leaking, it was not my responsibility to volunteer a lot of information. There are many cases in this deposition where I gave -- and keep in mind, I prepared -- I treated them, frankly, with respect. I prepared very well for this deposition on the Jones' matters. I prepared very well on that. I did not know that Linda Tripp had been involved in the preparation of this deposition or that all of...

QUESTION: Do you know that now?

CLINTON: No, I don't. I just know that -- what I read in the papers about it. But I had no way of knowing that they would ask me all these detailed questions. I did the best I could to answer them.

QUESTION: Did you...

CLINTON: But in this deposition, Mr. Bittman, I was doing my best to be truthful. I was not trying to be particularly helpful to them. And I didn't think I had an obligation to be particularly helpful to them to further -- when I knew that there was no evidence here of sexual harassment. And I knew what they wanted to do was to leak this even though it was unlawful to do so. That's what I knew.

QUESTION: Did you believe, Mr. President, that you had an obligation to make sure that the presiding federal judge was on board and had the correct facts? Did you believe that was your obligation?

CLINTON: Sir, I was trying to answer my testimony. I was thinking about my testimony. I don't believe I ever even focused on what Mr. Bennett said in the exact words he did until I started reading this transcript carefully for this hearing. That moment, the whole argument just passed me by. I was a witness. I was trying to focus on what I said and how I said it. And believe me, I knew what the purpose of the deposition was.

CLINTON: And sure enough, by the way, it did all leak, just I knew it would.

QUESTION: Let me ask you, Mr. President, you indicate in your statement that you were alone with Ms. Lewinsky. Is that right?

CLINTON: Yes, sir.

QUESTION: How many times were you alone with Ms. Lewinsky?

CLINTON: Let me begin with the correct answer -- I don't know for sure. But if you would like me to give an educated guess, I will do that. But I do not know for sure. And I will tell you what I think based on what I remember. But I can't be held to a specific time because I don't have records of all of them.

QUESTION: How many times do you think?

CLINTON: Well, there are two different periods here. There is the period when she worked in the White House until April of '96. And then there's the period when she came back to visit me from February '97 until late december '97. Based on our records -- let's start with the records, where we have the best records and the closest in time -- based on our records, between February and december, it appears to me that at least I could have seen her approximately nine times. Although I do not believe I saw her quite that many times, at least it could have happened. We think there were nine or 10 times when she was in the White House when I was in the Oval Office when I could have seen her. I do not believe I saw her that many times, but I could have. Now, we have no records for the time when she was an employee at the White House because we have no records of that for any of the employees at the White House unless there is some formally scheduled meeting that was on the calendar for the day. I remember -- I'll tell you what I remember. I remember meeting her or having my first real conversation with her during the government shutdown in November of '95, when she -- as I explained in my deposition, during the government shutdown, most federal employees were actually prohibited from coming to work even in the White House. Most people in the White House couldn't come to work. The chief of staff could come to work; my national security adviser could come to work; I could. Therefore, interns were assigned to all offices. And I believe it was her last week as an intern. Anyway, she worked in the chief of staff's office. One night, she brought me some pizza; we had some remarks. Now, the next time I remember seeing her alone was on a couple of occasions when she was working in the Legislative Affairs Office as a full time employee. I remember specifically -- I have a specific recollection of two times. I don't remember when they were. But I remember twice when, on a Sunday afternoon, she brought papers down to me, stayed and we were alone. And I am frankly quite sure -- although I have no specific memory, I am quite sure -- that there were a couple of more times, probably two times more, three times more. That's what I would say. That's what I can remember. But I do not remember when they were or at what time of day they were or what the facts were. But I have a general memory that would say I certainly saw her more than twice during that period between January and April of 1996 when she worked there.

QUESTION: So, if I can summarize your testimony, approximately five times you saw her before she left the White House, and approximately nine times after she left the employment of the White House.

CLINTON: I don't -- there were several times in '97. I told you that I've looked at my calendar and I can tell you what I think the outer limits are. I would think that would sound about right. There could be, in that first four month period, maybe there's one or two more, maybe there's one less. I just don't know. I don't remember. I didn't keep records. But I'm giving you what I specifically remember, and then what I generally remember. I'm doing the best to be helpful to you.

QUESTION: Have you reviewed the records for december 28, 1997, Mr. President.

CLINTON: Yes, sir, I have.

QUESTION: Do you believe that Ms. Lewinsky was at the White House and saw you on december 28th, '97?

CLINTON: Yes, sir, I do.

QUESTION: And do you remember talking with Ms. Lewinsky about her subpoena to appear in the Paula Jones case on that day?

CLINTON: I remember talking with Ms. Lewinsky about her testimony or about the prospect that she might have to give testimony. And she -- she talked to me about that. I remember that.

QUESTION: And you also gave her Christmas gifts -- is that not correct, Mr. President?

CLINTON: Yes, that is correct. They were Christmas gifts and they were going-away gifts. She was moving to New York, taking a new job, starting a new life and I gave her some gifts.

QUESTION: And you actually requested this evening. Is that not correct?

CLINTON: I don't remember that, Mr. Bittman, but it's quite possible that I invited her to come by before she left town. But usually when we met, she requested the meetings. And my recollection is that in 1997, she asked to meet with me several times when I could not meet with her and did not do so. But it's quite possible that I -- that because she had given me a Christmas gift and because she was leaving that I invited her to come by White House and get a couple of gifts -- and before she left town. I don't remember who requested the meeting though. I'm sorry I don't.

QUESTION: You were alone with her on december 28th, 1997?

CLINTON: Yes, sir. I was.

QUESTION: The gifts that you gave her, you are saying were a tennis bag from the Black Dog Restaurant at Martha's Vineyard. Is that right?

CLINTON: Well, that was just -- that was just something I had in the place to contain the gifts. But I believe that the gifts I gave her -- I put them in that bag. That's what I had there and knew she liked things from the Black Dog so I gave her -- I think that's what I put the presents in. I can tell you what the presents were. I don't remember what the bag was I gave them in.

QUESTION: Did you also give here a marble bear's head carving from Vancouver, Canada?

CLINTON: I did do that. I remember that.

QUESTION: You also gave her a Rockettes blanket (OFF-MIKE) from New York?

CLINTON: I did do that. I had -- I have had that in my possession for a couple of years, but had never used it and she was going to New York, so I thought it would be a nice thing to give her.

QUESTION: You gave her a box of cherry chocolates. Is that right?

CLINTON: I don't remember that, sir. I mean, there could have been. I just don't remember. I remember giving the bear and the throw. I don't remember what else. It seems to like there was other thing in that bag. I don't -- I didn't remember the cherry chocolates.

QUESTION: How about a pin of the New York skyline?

CLINTON: That could have been in there. I seem to remember I gave her some kind of pin.

QUESTION: What about a pair of dark sunglasses?

CLINTON: I don't remember that. I'm not denying it. I just --I'm telling you what I remember and what I don't.

QUESTION: You have given Ms. Lewinsky gifts on other occasions. Is that right, Mr. President?

CLINTON: Yes, I have.

QUESTION: This though was -- you gave her the most gifts that you had ever given her in a single day. Is that right?

CLINTON: Yes, that's probably true. It was sort of like a going-away present and a Christmas present as well and she had given me a particularly nice book for Christmas -- an antique book on presidents. She knew that I collected old books and it was very nice thing. And I just thought I ought to get up a few things and give them to her before she left.

QUESTION: You mentioned that you discussed her subpoena in the Paula Jones case. Tell us specifically what did you discuss?

CLINTON: No, sir, that's what I said. I said my recollection is -- I knew by then, of course, that she had gotten a subpoena and I knew that she was -- therefore -- was slated to testify.

CLINTON: And she mentioned to me -- and I believe it was at this meeting. She mentioned -- I remember a conversation about the possibility of her testifying. I believe it must have occurred on the 28th. She mentioned to me that she did not want to testify. And so --so that's how it came up -- not in the context of, "I heard you have a subpoena. Let's talk about it." She raised the issue with me in the context of her desire to avoid testifying, which I certainly understood, not only because there were some embarrassing facts about our relationship that were inappropriate, but also because a whole lot of innocent people were being traumatized and dragged through the mud by these Jones lawyers with their dragnet strategy. They...

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE).

CLINTON: And so I -- and since she didn't know Paula Jones, and knew nothing about sexual harassment, and didn't have -- certainly had no experience with that, I -- I clearly understood why she didn't want to be a part of it.

QUESTION: And you didn't want her to testify, did you? You want her to disclose these embarrassing facts of this inappropriate, intimate relationship that you had? Is that correct?

CLINTON: Well, I did not want her to have to testify and go through that. And of course, I had -- I didn't want her to do that. Of course not.

QUESTION: Did you want those facts -- not only the fact that you had testified, but did you want the facts that she had about your embarrassing, inappropriate, intimate relationship to be disclosed?

CLINTON: Not there. But not in any context. However, I -- I never had any high confidence that they wouldn't be.

QUESTION: Did anyone, as far as you knew, know about your embarrassing, inappropriate, intimate relationship that you had with Ms. Lewinsky?

CLINTON: At that time, I was unaware that she had told anyone else about it. But if -- if I had known that, I would -- it would not have surprised me.

QUESTION: Had you told anyone?

CLINTON: Absolutely not.

QUESTION: And you tried, in fact, not to let anyone else know about this relationship?

CLINTON: Well, of course.

QUESTION: What did you do?

CLINTON: Well, I never said anything about it, for one thing. And I did what people do when they do the wrong thing. I tried to do it when nobody else was looking.

QUESTION: How many times did you do that?

CLINTON: Well, if you go back to my statement, I remember there were a few times in '96. I can't say with any certainty. There was once in early '97. After she left the White House, I do not believe I ever had any inappropriate contact with her in the rest of '96. There was one occasion in '97 when, regrettably, that we were together for a few minutes. I think about 20 minutes. And there was inappropriate contact. And after that, to the best of my memory and belief, it did not occur again.

QUESTION: Did you tell her in the conversation about her being subpoenaed -- she was upset about it. You acknowledged that. I'm sorry, you have to respond for the record, yes or no. Do you agree that she was upset about being subpoenaed?

CLINTON: Oh, yes, sir, she was upset. She -- well, she -- we --she didn't -- we didn't talk about the subpoena. But she was upset. She said, "I don't want to testify. I know nothing about this. I certainly know nothing about sexual harassment. Why do they want me to testify?" And I explained to her why they were doing this, and why all these women were on these lists -- and people that they knew good and well had nothing to do with any sexual harassment. I explained to her that it was a political lawsuit. They wanted to get whatever they could under oath that was damaging to me. And then they wanted to leak it in violation of the judge's orders, and turn up their nose and say, "Well, you can't prove we did it." Now, that was their strategy.

CLINTON: And they were very frustrated because everything they'd leaked so far was old news. So they desperately were trying to validate this massive amount of money they'd spent by finding some new news. And...

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)...

CLINTON: ... she didn't want to be caught up in that and I didn't blame her.

QUESTION: But you were familiar, weren't you, Mr. President, that she had received this subpoena? You've already acknowledged...

CLINTON: Yes, sir. I was.

QUESTION: And Mr. Jordan informed you of that? Is that right?

CLINTON: No, sir. I believe -- and I believe I testified to this in my deposition -- I think the first person who told me that she had been subpoenaed was Bruce Lindsey. I think the first thing -- and I was in this deposition. It's a little bit cloudy. But I was trying to remember who the first person who told me was, because the question was -- again, as I remember -- could we go to that in the deposition, since you asked me that?

QUESTION: Actually, I think you're -- with all respect, I think you may be confusing again Mr. Lindsey's -- perhaps Mr. Lindsey did tell you she was subpoenaed. I don't know. But in your deposition, you were referring to Mr. Lindsey notifying you that she had been identified as a witness.

Lees verder

Transcript by The Federal Document Clearing House.

Een integrale versie van het verhoor kunt u beluisteren en bekijken op:
CNN | BBC | ABC | MSNBC | Fox News | CBS News | New York Times | Washington Post | Los Angeles Times | Boston Globe | San Jose Mercury News | Yahoo! RealAudio | C-SPAN RealVideo | Broadcast.com | ITN Online | InterVU | Real Networks | FedNet RealVideo