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Transcriptie van Clintons verhoor voor de Grand Jury (17 aug. 1998). Ook als zip-bestand te downloaden.

Starr Report

Clintons reactie op het Starr Report

Clintons tweede reactie op het Starr Report

President Clinton testifies before the Kenneth Starr grand jury to discuss his relationship with Monica Lewinsky

CLINTON: Mr. Bittman, just a minute. "I was never alone with her, right?" might be a question. And what I might have meant by that is, "In the Oval Office complex."

QUESTION: But you knew the answer...

CLINTON: Could -- we've been going for more than an hour, would you mind if we take a break? I need to go to the restroom.

QUESTION: 2:38. (BREAK)

QUESTION: Mr. President, I want to go into a new subject area, briefly go over something you were talking about with Mr. Bittman. The statement of your attorney, Mr. Bennett, at the Paula Jones deposition -- counsel is fully aware -- it's page 54, line 5. Counsel is fully aware that Ms. Lewinsky is filing, has an affidavit, which they were in possession of, saying that there was absolutely no sex of any kind in any manner, shape or form with President Clinton. That statement was made by your attorney in front of Judge Susan Webber Wright.

CLINTON: That's correct.

QUESTION: Your -- that statement is a completely false statement. Whether or not Mr. Bennett knew of your relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, the statement that there was no sex of any kind in any manner, shape or form with President Clinton was an utterly false statement. Is that correct?

CLINTON: It depends upon what the meaning of the word is means. If is means is, and never has been, that's one thing. If it means, there is none, that was a completely true statement. But as I have testified -- I'd like to testify again -- this is -- it somewhat unusual for a client to be asked about his lawyer's statements instead of the other way around. I was not paying a great deal of attention to this exchange. I was focusing on my own testimony. And that if you go back and look at the sequence of events, you will see that the Jones' lawyers decided that this was going to be the Lewinsky deposition, not the Jones deposition. And given the facts of their case, I can understand why they made that decision. But that is not how I prepared for it. That is not how I was thinking about it. And I am not sure, Mr. Wisenberg, as I sit here today that I sat there and followed all these interchanges between the lawyers. I'm quite sure that I didn't follow all the interchanges between the lawyers all that carefully. And I don't really believe, therefore, that I can say Mr. Bennett's testimony or statement is testimony that is impugnable to me. I didn't -- I don't know that I was really paying that much attention to him.

QUESTION: You've told us you were very well-prepared for the deposition.

CLINTON: No, I said I was very well prepared to talk about Paula Jones and to talk about Kathleen Willey, because she had made a related charge. She was the only person that I think I was asked about who had anything to do with the -- anything that would remotely approximate sexual harassment. The rest of this it looked to me like it was more of a way to harass me.

QUESTION: You're the president of the United States, and your attorney counseled the United States District Court judge that there's no sex of any kind or any way, shape or form whatsoever. And you feel no obligation to do anything about that at that deposition, Mr. President?

CLINTON: I had told you, Mr. Wisenberg -- I will tell you for a third time -- I am not even sure that when Mr. Bennett made that statement that I was concentrating on the exact words he used. Now, someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky -- that is ask me a question in the present tense -- I would have said no. And it would have been completely true.

QUESTION: Was Mr. Bennett aware of this tense-based distinction you were making?

CLINTON: I don't -- I don't...

KENDALL: I'm going to object to any questions about communications with private counsel.

QUESTION: Well, the witness has already testified, I think, that Mr. Bennett didn't know about the inappropriate relationship with Ms. Lewinsky. I guess...

CLINTON: Well, you'll have to ask him. You know, he was not a sworn witness, and I was not paying that close attention to what he was saying. I've told you that repeatedly. I was -- I don't -- I never even focused on that until I read it in this transcript in preparation for this testimony.

CLINTON: When I was in there, I didn't think about my lawyers. I was only thinking about myself and my testimony and trying to answer the questions.

QUESTION: I just want to make sure I understand you correctly. Do you mean today that because you were not engaging in sexual activity with Ms. Lewinsky during the deposition that the statement Mr. Bennett made (OFF-MIKE)?

CLINTON: No, sir. I mean that at the time of the deposition, we had been -- that was well-beyond any point of improper contact between me and Ms. Lewinsky. So that anyone generally speaking in the present tense saying that was not an improper relationship would be telling the truth if that person said there was not, in the present tense --the present tense encompassing many months. That's what I meant by that -- not that I was -- I wasn't trying to give you a cute answer to that. I was obviously not involved in anything improper during the deposition. I was trying to tell you that, generally speaking in the present tense, if someone said that, that would be true. But I don't know what Mr. Bennett had in his mind. I don't know -- I didn't pay attention to this colloquy that went on. I was waiting for my instructions as a witness to go forward. I was worried about my own testimony.

QUESTION: I want to go back to some questions about Mr. Jordan and touch a little bit on the december 19th meeting and some others. Mr. Jordan is a longtime friend of yours, is that correct, Mr. President?

CLINTON: Yes, sir. We've been friends probably 20 years, maybe more.

QUESTION: You said you consider him to be a truthful person, correct?

CLINTON: I do.

QUESTION: If Mr. Jordan has told us that he visited you in the residence on the night of the 19th after a White House holiday dinner to discuss Monica Lewinsky and her subpoena, would you have any reason to doubt it?

CLINTON: No. I've never known him to say anything that wasn't true. And his memory of these events, I think, would be better than mine, because I had a lot of other things going on.

QUESTION: We have WAVE records that will show that. But in the interest of time, I'm not going to -- since you don't dispute that, I'm not going to show them right now. And in fact, that was the very day Monica Lewinsky was subpoenaed, wasn't it? That that's the night that he came to see you?

CLINTON: I don't have independent memory of that, but you would probably know that. I mean, I'm sure there's a record of when she got her subpoena.

QUESTION: If Mr. Jordan has told us that he spoke with you over the phone within about an hour of Monica receiving her subpoena and later visited you that very day -- night at the White House to discuss it, again, you'd have no reason to doubt him, is that correct?

CLINTON: Well, I believe I've already testified about that here today. That I had a lots of conversations with Vernon. I am sure that I had lots of conversations with him that included comments about this. And if he has a specific memory of when I had some conversation on a certain day, I would be inclined to trust his memory over mine, because under the present circumstances, my head's probably more cluttered than his and my schedule's probably busier. He's probably got better records.

QUESTION: And when Mr. Jordan met with you at the residence that night, sir, he asked you if you had been involved in a sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky, didn't he?

CLINTON: I do not remember exactly what the nature of the conversation was. I do remember that I told him -- excuse me -- that I told him that there was no sexual relationship between me and Monica Lewinsky, which was true. And that -- then all I remember for the most (ph) is that he said he had referred her to a lawyer. And I believe it was Mr. Carter, and I don't believe I've ever met Mr. Carter. I don't think I know him.

QUESTION: Mr. President, if Mr. Jordan has told us that he had a very disturbing conversation with Ms. Lewinsky that day, then went over to visit you at the White House, and that before he asked you the question about sexual relationship, related that disturbing conversation to you, the conversation being that Ms. Lewinsky had a fixation on you and thought that perhaps the first lady would leave you at the end of the -- that you would leave the first lady at the end of your term and come be with Ms. Lewinsky, you'd have no reason to doubt him that it was on that night that that conversation happened?

CLINTON: All I can tell you, sir, is I certainly don't remember him saying that. Now, he could have said that, because, as you know, a great many things happened in the ensuing two or three days. And I could have just forgotten it. But I don't remember him ever saying that.

QUESTION: At any time?

CLINTON: No. I don't remember him saying that. What I remember was that he said that Monica came to see him, that she was upset that she was going to have to testify, that he had referred her to a lawyer.

QUESTION: In fact, she was very distraught about the subpoena, according to Mr. Jordan, wasn't she?

CLINTON: Well, he said she was upset about it. I remember that -- I don't remember any -- at any time when he said this other thing you just quoted me. I'm sorry. I just don't remember that.

QUESTION: That is something that one would be likely to remember, don't you think, Mr. President?

CLINTON: I think I would, and I'd be happy to share it with you if I did. I only had one encounter with Ms. Lewinsky, I seem to remember, which was somewhat maybe reminiscent of that, but not that, if you will, obsessive, if that's the way you want to use that word.

QUESTION: Do you recall him at all telling you that he was concerned about her fascination with you, even if you don't remember the specific conversation about you leaving the first lady?

CLINTON: When I was in there, I didn't think about my lawyers. I was only thinking about myself and my testimony and trying to answer the questions.

CLINTON: No, sir. I mean that at the time of the deposition, we had been -- that was well-beyond any point of improper contact between me and Ms. Lewinsky. So that anyone generally speaking in the present tense saying that was not an improper relationship would be telling the truth if that person said there was not, in the present tense -- the present tense encompassing many months. That's what I meant by that -- not that I was -- I wasn't trying to give you a cute answer to that. I was obviously not involved in anything improper during the deposition. I was trying to tell you that, generally speaking in the present tense, if someone said that, that would be true. But I don't know what Mr. Bennett had in his mind. I don't know -- I didn't pay attention to this colloquy that went on. I was waiting for my instructions as a witness to go forward. I was worried about my own testimony.

CLINTON: Yes, sir. We've been friends probably 20 years, maybe more.

QUESTION: You said you consider him to be a truthful person, correct?

CLINTON: I do.

CLINTON: No. I've never known him to say anything that wasn't true. And his memory of these events, I think, would be better than mine, because I had a lot of other things going on.

CLINTON: I don't have independent memory of that, but you would probably know that. I mean, I'm sure there's a record of when she got her subpoena.

QUESTION: And when Mr. Jordan met with you at the residence that night, sir, he asked you if you had been involved in a sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky, didn't he?

QUESTION: At any time?

QUESTION: In fact, she was very distraught about the subpoena, according to Mr. Jordan, wasn't she?

CLINTON: Well, he said she was upset about it. I remember that -- I don't remember any -- at any time when he said this other thing you just quoted me. I'm sorry. I just don't remember that.

QUESTION: That is something that one would be likely to remember, don't you think, Mr. President?

QUESTION: Do you recall him at all telling you that he was concerned about her fascination with you, even if you don't remember the specific conversation about you leaving the first lady?

CLINTON: I recall him saying he thought that she was upset with -- somewhat fixated on me. But she acknowledged that she was not having a sexual relationship with me and that she did not want to be drug into the Jones lawsuit. That's what I recall. And I recall his getting -- saying that he had recommended a lawyer to her and she had gone to see the lawyer. That's what I recall. I don't remember the other thing you mentioned. I just -- I might well remember it if he had said it. Maybe he said it and I've forgotten it. But I don't -- I can't tell you that I remember that.

QUESTION: Mr. President, you swore under oath in the Jones case that you didn't think anyone other than your lawyers had ever told you that Monica Lewinsky had been subpoenaed. Page 68, line 22, through page 69, line three. Here's the testimony, sir.

Question: "We've gone over it a little bit before. Did anyone other than your attorneys ever tell you that Monica Lewinsky had been served with a subpoena in the case?"

Answer: "I don't think so." Now this deposition was taken just 3 1/2 weeks after, by your own testimony, Vernon Jordan made a trip at night to the White House to tell you, among other things, that Monica Lewinsky had been subpoenaed and was upset about it. Why did you give that testimony under oath in the Jones case, sir?

CLINTON: Well, Mr. Wisenberg, I think you have to -- again, you have to put this in the context of the flow of questions, and I've already testified to this once today. I will testify to it again. My answer to the next question, I think, is a way of finishing my answer to the question and the answer you've said there. I was trying to remember who the first person, other than Mr. Bennett -- I don't think Mr. Bennett -- who the first person told me that -- who told me Paula Jones had -- I mean, excuse me, Monica Lewinsky had a subpoena. And I thought that Bruce Lindsey was the first person and that's how I was trying to remember that. Keep in mind, sort of like today, these questions are very -- kind of put at me rapid fire. But unlike today, I hadn't had the opportunity to prepare at this level of detail. I didn't -- I was trying to keep a lot of things in my head that I had remembered with regard to the Paula Jones case and the Kathleen Willey matter, because I knew I would be asked about them. And I gave the best answers I could. Several of my answers are somewhat jumbled. But this is an honest attempt here -- if you read both these answers, it's obvious they're both answers to that question you quoted -- to remember the first person who was not Mr. Bennett, who told me. And I don't believe Vernon was the first person who told me. I believe Bruce Lindsey was.

QUESTION: Let me read the question because I want to talk about the first-person issue. The question on line 25 of page 68 is "Did anyone other than your attorneys ever tell you that Monica Lewinsky had been served with a subpoena in this case?"

Answer: "I don't think so." You agree with me, sir, that the question doesn't say -- the question doesn't say anything about who was the first person? It just says, did anyone tell you?

QUESTION: Isn't that correct?

CLINTON: That's right, and I said Bruce Lindsey because I was trying to struggle with who -- at where I had heard this. And they were free to ask a follow-up question. And they didn't.

QUESTION: Mr. President, 3.5 weeks before, Mr. Jordan had made a special trip to the White House to tell you Ms. Lewinsky had been subpoenaed; she was distraught; she had a fixation over you. And you couldn't remember that 3.5 weeks later?

CLINTON: Mr. Wisenberg, if they had access to all this information from their conversations with Linda Tripp, if that was the basis of it, they were free to ask me more questions. They may have been trying to trick me. Now, they knew more about the details of my relationship with Monica Lewinsky -- I'm not sure everything they knew was true because I don't know. I've not heard these tapes or anything. But they knew a lot more than I did. And instead of trying to trick me, what they should have done is to ask me specific questions. And I -- I invited them on more than one occasion to ask follow-up questions. This is the third or fourth time that you seem to be complaining that I did not do all their work for them, that just sitting here answering these questions to the best of my memory with limited preparation was not enough, that I should have actually been doing all their work for them. Now, they had been up all night with Linda Tripp, who had betrayed her friend Monica Lewinsky, stabbed her in the back, and given them all this information. They could have helped more. If they wanted to ask me follow-up questions, they could. They didn't. I'm sorry. I did the best I could.

QUESTION: Can you tell the grand jury what is tricky about the question? Did anyone other than your attorneys ever tell you...

CLINTON: No, there is nothing. I'm just telling you. I have explained, and I will now explain for the third time, sir. I was being asked a number of questions here. I was struggling to remember them. There were lots of things that had gone on during this time period that had nothing to do with Monica Lewinsky. You know, I -- I believed then -- I believe now, that Monica Lewinsky could have sworn out an honest affidavit that, under reasonable circumstances, and without the benefit of what Linda Tripp did to her, would have given her a chance not to be a witness in this case. So I didn't have perfect memory of all these events that have now, in the last seven months, since Ms. Lewinsky was kept for several hours by four or five of your lawyers, and four or five FBI agents, as if she were a serious felon -- these things have become the most important matters in the world. At the moment they were occurring, many other things were going on. I honestly tried to remember when -- you know, if somebody asks you, Has anybody ever talked to you about this?" You normally think -- Well, where was the first time I heard that. That's all I was trying to do here. I was not trying to say not Vernon Jordan, but Bruce Lindsey. Everybody knows Vernon Jordan is a friend of mine. I probably would have talked to Vernon Jordan about the Monica Lewinsky problem if he had never been involved in it. So I was not trying to mislead them. I was trying to answer this question with the first person who told me that. Now, I realize that wasn't the specific question. They were free to ask follow-ups just like you're asking follow-ups today. And I can't explain why I didn't answer every question in the way you seem to think I should have. And I certainly can't explain why they didn't ask what seemed to me to be logical follow-ups, especially since they spent all that time with Linda Tripp the night before.

QUESTION: You've told us that you understand your obligation, then as it is now, is to tell the whole truth, sir. You recall that?

CLINTON: I took the oath here.

QUESTION: If Vernon Jordan...

CLINTON: You even read me a definition of the oath.

QUESTION: If Vernon Jordan has told us that you have an extraordinary memory, one of the greatest memories he has ever seen in a politician, would that be something you would care to dispute?

CLINTON: No. I do have a good memory. At least I have had a good memory in my life.

QUESTION: You understand that if you answered, "I don't think so," to the question "Has anyone other than your attorneys told you that Monica Lewinsky has been served with a subpoena in this case?" and if you answered, "I don't think so," but you really knew Vernon Jordan had been telling you all about it, you understand that that would be a false statement, presumably perjurious.

CLINTON: Mr. Wisenberg, I have testified about this three times. Now, I will do it the fourth time. I am not going to answer your trick questions.

CLINTON: And people don't always hear the same questions in the same way. They don't always answer them in the same way. I was so concerned about the question they asked me that the next question I was asked, I went back to the previous question trying to give an honest answer about the first time I heard about the Lewinsky subpoena. I -- look, I could have had no reasonable expectation that anyone would ever know that, or excuse me, not know if this thing would be -- but I would talk to Vernon Jordan about nearly everything. I was not interested in -- if the implication of your question is that somehow I didn't want anybody to know I had ever talked to Vernon Jordan about this, that's just not so. It's also -- if I could say one thing about my memory -- I have been blessed and advantaged in my life with a good memory. I have been shocked and so have members of my family and friends of mine at how many things that I have forgotten in the last six years -- I think because of the pressure and the pace and the volume of events in a president's life, compounded by the pressure of your four-year inquiry, and all the other things that have happened. I'm amazed -- there are lots of times when I literally can't remember last week. If you ask me -- Did you talk to Vernon -- when is the last time you talked to Vernon Jordan? What time of day was it? When did you see him? What did you say? My answer was -- the last, you know, if you answered -- When is the last time you saw a friend of yours in California? If you ask me a lot of questions like that, my memory is not what it was when I came here because my life is so crowded. And now that -- as I said -- you have made this the most important issue in America. I mean, you have made it the most important issue in America from your point of view. At the time this was occurring, even though I was concerned about it, and I hoped she didn't have to testify, and I hoped this wouldn't come out, I felt -- I will say again -- that she could honestly fill out an affidavit that in -- under reasonable circumstances would relieve her of the burden of testifying. And I'm not trying to exclude the fact that I talked to Vernon here. I just -- all I can tell you is, I believe this answer reflects I was trying to remember the first person who told me, who was not Mr. Bennett. And I believe it was Bruce Lindsey.

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